HEALING THE GRIEVING HEART
Coping With Pregnancy and Infant Loss
Hosts:? Dr. Gloria Horsley and Dr. Heidi Horsley
With guest:? Monica Novak
October 11, 2007
G:? ?Hello.? I?m Dr. Gloria Horsley with my co-host
H:? ?Dr. Heidi Horsley.
G:? ?Each week, Heidi and I welcome you to Healing the Grieving Heart, a show of hope and conversation with those who?ve suffered the loss of a loved one and for health care professionals who work in this most difficult field.? And always the message is others have been there before you and made it, you can, too.? You need not walk alone.? If you?re listening to our Thursday live Internet show, please join Heidi and me on the show by calling our toll free number, 1-866-472-5792, with questions or comments regarding the losses in your life.? These shows are archived on our blog, www.thegriefblog.com as well as www.thecompassionatefriends.org websites.? All shows can be downloaded on Itunes and transcripts can be accessed on www.thegriefblog.com.? Good morning, Heidi.
H:?Good morning, mom.
G:?Well, we?ve just uh.? The blog, www.thegriefblog.com is going so well and people are making comments to the statements that other people made, and one of the things I want to start doing a little more, Heidi, and I want our audience to know it, that we are going to start addressing the emails that go on the blog on air so if you would like us to address some of your issues, please send them to us through www.thegriefblog.com and we will talk about them on air.? So I want to start out today, Heidi, with a ? and we will also just state a first name but not a last, and if you?d like to give us the area where you live when you email us, we?d love to just say the area.? But we got an email from Daisy and she said:
I lost my sister and my brother in December of 2006.
H:?So her sister and her brother.
G:?Yeah, but there?s a little different take on it.? She lost both of them but the reality is her brother actually murdered her sister.
H:?Oh, wow.
G:?And her brother was put ? he is in prison right now, and her question is:?
I?m feeling normal stuff.? Will I ever be mad at my brother, and will it be wrong if I forgive him?? If I don?t get angry with my brother, am I dishonoring my sister?? I ask because this is new for me.? I?m usually the type of person who holds things in and is the strong one for everyone.
So 2006 in December.? It has not been a ? it?s been a year, right, Heidi?? Yeah.? A little over a year.
H:?If it?s 2006, it hasn?t been a year yet.? It?s only 2007.? She?s in the first year, mom, and I think that talking about that is important to clarify that because most of us in our first year are pretty numb and in shock and can?t believe it really happened, and I don?t know where she is as far as feelings.
G:?Well, yeah, she says will I ever be angry?? You know what, some people never are.? We?ve had people on who are like I never got angry.
H:?That?s the other side of it.? Either she could eventually get to that place or like you said, mom, maybe she will never because maybe that?s not what?s going to happen with her.? Everybody?s different.
G:?And, you know, don?t try to meet people?s goals that you should be angry.? That just may not be what it is for you.? Now she wants to know, am I dishonoring them if I forgive him?? You know what, we had a woman on the show about four weeks ago whose ? talk about that one, Heidi ? whose son murdered her husband.
H:?Yes, it was a mentally ill son murders his father.? I think that was the name of the show.? And she talked about how she witnessed her son murdering her husband, and she did end up ? she forgave her son.? She ended up not being angry.? She recognized that he was a very ? he had a mental illness and he didn?t know what he was doing, etc., and she definitely forgave him and didn?t get to a place of anger at all.
G:?We know many of our guests tell us that the beginning of healing was a forgiving process.
H:?Right, and I know when Craig Scott, and he was the teenager that witnessed a dozen people being murdered at Columbine including his sister, and he said forgiveness is like setting a prisoner free and finding out that prisoner is you.
G:?Absolutely.? So Daisy, we would say ? I would say to you that the law has judged your brother.? He is in prison and that?s really not your job.? He is your brother, and I would, you know, should you forgive?? You should do what?s in your heart.
H:?Exactly, what feels right for you.
G:?Absolutely, what feels right for you.? But we can tell you other guests that we?ve had on the show have said that forgiveness was the beginning of healing for them.? So take care of yourself, Daisy, and thank you very much for your email.? Well, Heidi, our guest today is very interesting because October ? she?s Monica Novak ? and October, Monica has told us, is Pregnancy and Infant Loss Month, and so it?s an important person to have on the show to talk about this, and Monica has sent us information about stillbirth.? 26,000 babies are stillborn in the United States every year and another 26,000 will die within their first year of life.? So this is a large issue we?re talking about today.? And we have a little information that Monica wrote up for us on our blog, www.thegriefblog.com, so if you want to read a little more about October being pregnancy and infant loss month, go to our blog, www.thegriefblog.com.? Well, Heidi, would you like to introduce Monica?
H:?Sure, I?d love to.? Our topic today is ?Coping With Pregnancy and Infant Loss? and our guest is Monica Novak.? Following the stillbirth of her daughter Miranda in 1995, Monica joined a support group, which included six women who had also lost babies to miscarriage, stillbirth, and infant death.? The women quickly bonded and began the journey through grief and trying to get pregnant again.? Monica chronicles their journey of healing and friendship in her book, The Good Grief Club.? The women are still friends today and have turned their pain into a new way of living, giving back by helping other bereaved parents.? The Good Grief Club is available from Inkwell Productions and on the Share National Pregnancy and Infant Loss website:? www.nationalshareoffice.com and www.thegoodgriefclub.com.? Welcome to the show, Monica.
M:?Thank you, Heidi.? Good morning.? Thank you, Gloria.
G:?Good morning, Monica.? It?s great to have you on the show and what an important topic we?re covering today.? I mean, it?s so prevalent and people don?t oftentimes don?t talk about the pregnancy and infant loss so even though it?s very much in their hearts.? Could you talk a little bit starting out for our audience about your own experience?
M:?In 1995, I was pregnant with my second child.? My husband, Al, and I had a two-year-old daughter with us at home already, and this second pregnancy had been a textbook case, no problems, pretty much sailed through it, and, on the night before my due date, I was sitting in the rocking chair eating my ice cream as I did every night, and I noticed that the baby hadn?t moved, and this was usually her very active time of day.? And so I laid down on the couch and tried changing positions and began to poke and prod at my belly, and there was just absolutely no response at all, and I began to get very nervous, of course, and finally with encouragement from my husband called the doctor.? To make a long story short, I drove myself to the hospital, leaving my husband home with our two-year-old daughter, and after 15 minutes of the nurses trying to find a heartbeat with no success, my doctor came in, turned on the ultrasound machine, and we had our answer.? He looked down at me and said there?s no heartbeat.
G:?Oh, what a shock.
M:?And it was the most shocking thing that could have ever happened and you don?t go through a perfect pregnancy ever expecting that the day before your due date, somebody?s going to tell you that suddenly your baby has died with no warning, with no chance for you to do anything about it, and suddenly the baby that you were ready to bring home is not coming home with you and you have to plan a funeral.
G:?Oh, what a tragedy.? What a shock.? And I?m sure a lot of our audience out there are identifying with this right now, yeah, or the miscarriage part of it.
M:?Absolutely, and you mentioned earlier the statistics on stillbirth and infant deaths, but also there are approximately 900,000 babies lost in miscarriage every year, and I have come to know through my experience that women who lose babies in miscarriage can grieve just as deeply as I did losing a full-term baby, so you cannot put a timeline on that and say well, because you lost your baby at three months and I lost mine at nine months, my grief is that much deeper as yours.? That?s not true at all.
G:?Um hm.? Do you think there?s a difference?? How did your husband respond?? Is there a difference between the way the mom responds when she finds out in utero than the husband?? I was thinking of all those hormonal issues and things that have got to kick up there.
M:?I believe so and I can only speak from my own experience.? Obviously, I was the one that had carried that baby and felt every movement from that baby, felt responsible for the nourishment of the baby and the health of the baby.? My husband grieved deeply as well, but I think it was a different experience for him.? I think he was witnessing it from the outside whereas I was feeling it literally from the inside out, and I think his grief also was compounded because he felt like he needed to take care of me and our daughter, and I could only focus on the baby inside me.
H:?And, Monica, I just needed to ask you.? I know we?re kind of going in a different direction, but did they ever find out why your daughter died the day before her due date?
M:?Yes, we did actually.? We knew as soon as we delivered her.? We went in for surgery to do a c-section because I?d already had a c-section and so we knew within hours.? As soon as the doctor pulled the baby out, we saw the knot that had been tied in her umbilical cord and had pulled tight and so there was no reason for us to do an autopsy at that point because it was clear that that knot had cut off the circulation but that isn?t always the case.? I believe the statistic is that 50% of stillbirths have absolutely no medical explanation at all, and so those parents have to go through another pregnancy, if they?re fortunate to get pregnant again, not really knowing what happened the first time and dealing with the fear.
H:?And that stress.
G:?We need to go for break now, and when we come back, let?s talk a little bit about getting pregnant again and thoughts around this.? We?re coming up on break.? I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley, with my co-host, Dr. Heidi Horsley.? Please stay tuned to hear more about ?Coping with Pregnancy and Infant Loss? with Monica Novak.
When we went to break, we were talking a little bit about the loss of Monica?s pregnancy and the baby died in utero the day before the delivery date, date of delivery, and we ended the show with talking about unfortunately the cord had somehow knotted and the baby lost nourishment, but we wanted to clarify something with you, because the book, The Good Grief Club, will not be out.? It?s not out yet, and it won?t be out until probably the end of this year, so watch for it, and we?ll put it on our website when it comes out, and also her website, if you want to get in touch with her or read about the book on the website, and she?s got a chapter on there.? It?s a very nice website and I think you?ll enjoy it.? It?s www.thegoodgriefclub.com.? And you can go on our website also and see the e-card that has information on it.? Well, Monica, I wanted to talk a little bit about getting pregnant again after the loss of a child, and I think that kind of segues us into your book, too, where you were getting to be friends with six women and write about it in your book that these folks will be able to read about later.? Now tell me about.? How did you get together with the group, and what do you think group does for people?
M:?I was fortunate enough that the group, which is called Share, was actually being held at the hospital where I delivered Miranda.
G:?And by the way, they have a website also, Share, right?
M:?Yes.
G:?Do you want to give that?
M:?Share is a national organization.? They?ve been around for thirty years, and they are specifically a support organization for pregnancy and infant loss.? Their website is www.nationalshareoffice.com and they?re wonderful people with wonderful resources not only for bereaved families but also for the people who are caring for those bereaved families, and so I was lucky enough that one of their local chapters ? they have about 85 chapters throughout the country, and I believe two international groups, and one of the groups was at the hospital where I delivered and so the nurses were able to refer me directly to that group.? Interestingly, several of the people that attended that group and all six of my friends had actually delivered at other hospitals throughout the area but were referred to Share through one person or another.
G:?So great that there?s an organization like that.? I know many many years ago, probably 75
H:?1975 or 75 years ago?
G:?75 years ago, my husband ? my mother-in-law delivered a baby that had the cord wrapped around its neck and in that day and age, they didn?t ? she didn?t even get to see the baby.? And I knew her years later and she still talked about how everyone had told her it was a perfect baby, and she never was able to hold it and it was at term.? The cord wrapped around during delivery.? So it?s just amazing what people need and what?s out there now.? A resource like Share is amazing.? So you got ? you went to their meeting.? And tell us a little bit about that for our audience.? Is it ever?? Say my ? I lost the baby a year ago, is it too late to go to Share?
M:?Oh, never, in fact, in the back of my book, the epilogue, is a story of a woman who had lost her twin son, one of her sons, thirty years ago, and like you said, at that time, there weren?t organizations around like Share.? Hospital protocol was really to encourage the mother not ? quite often, not to look at the baby or hold the baby.? Not to bury the baby.? Not to give the baby a name.? And pretty much just pretend like it never happened.? And so there were so many families who are still holding that grief with them thirty years later and so this particular woman had held this grief in for thirty years, suffered from depression for thirty years even though she still had the living son, but she was grieving for the twin son, and when her own son lost his triplet daughters, her grief then resurfaced.? Now she was grieving for her three granddaughters and for the son that she lost thirty years earlier, so she and her son and her daughter-in-law began going to the same Share group that I went to and thirty years later, she?s finally on a road to healing.? So it?s never ever too late to seek help.
G:?Absolutely.? Isn?t that fascinating how things come up from that, Heidi, from past losses.
H:?I was just thinking that.? I mean, sometimes when we don?t address our own losses, a new loss will further that and we?ll wonder why we?re reacting so large and usually we?re grieving, like Monica said, two losses.
M:?Um hm.
G:?And to recognize that is kind of an amazing thing and to be able to come in and do that.? Well, talk a little bit for us about these ? what?s going on now in the medical community.? You know, with all these infertility issues and people having in vitro and multiple births.? There?s a lot going on in the medical community that almost is giving us, I would guess, almost more?the technology is giving us probably more miscarriages and, I would think, infant loss.
M:?You?re actually, you?re very correct.? What?s happening in doing my research is that we have two factors that are contributing to the increase in pregnancy and infant loss in this country.? The first factor is that women are beginning to have their families later in life and so you have more women becoming pregnant in their thirties and forties and unfortunately, the miscarriage for these women is slightly higher.? So you?re seeing an increase there and then because of the fertility technology available, you?re seeing more and more families seeking that technology which is putting them in a high-risk category for multiple births, which is putting them in a higher risk for loss, unfortunately.? And so even though we?re able to save babies that are being born shortly after twenty weeks, where ten years ago that was pretty much not happening, but you have more and more people in that category, so there are higher incidences of loss now.
G:?Um hm.? Heidi, I know, I was talking to you earlier, and you said you were willing to talk about your experience a little bit for our audience.?
H:?Yeah.? We actually did a show where I was a guest a couple of years ago talking about my own infertility and miscarriages.? But I had secondary infertility which many of you may know is when ? I had a child, but then when I went to get pregnant the second time, I couldn?t.? And I tried for a few years and then I did a lot of infertility and a couple of surgeries and I finally got pregnant and it was so amazing because it had taken two-and-a-half years to get pregnant, and I
G:?And how did you feel when you found out you were pregnant?
H:?I couldn?t believe it.? I was thrilled.? And I couldn?t believe it had finally happened because I had tried so hard and gone through so much.? You almost feel like you?re terminally ill when you?re going through infertility because you?re being poked and prodded and blood is being drawn and it?s very medical.? So when it finally happened, I was so thrilled and then I miscarried.? It was in my first trimester towards the end of it.? I miscarried and it was devastating because I had planned my whole future with this child that I just conceived and had this child?s whole life planned out.? My son was going to have a sibling, and so you know I grieved for my future basically and for the baby that I lost, but for my future, and I went a couple ? I think it was a year later ? no, it was six to eight months later, I got pregnant again, and I was very thrilled.
G:?Were you a little more cautious then and scared?
H:?I was totally.? Very very anxious and very nervous because they weren?t sure why I had miscarried.? They weren?t really positive.? So, yes, I was really really nervous and very cautious.
G:?And how old were you?
H:?Um, ooh, you?re giving away my age here.?
G:?That gives away mine, too.
H:?Exactly.? I was what they call advanced maternal age, and what Monica said, we?re having our children later, so I was 40 years old, and started infertility at 39 and I?ve got to tell you, when I was 38 years old, I went to my doctor and said, you know what, I?d like to get pregnant.? And he said, and I quote, ?Heidi, you?re young.? You have plenty of time.? Don?t.? You?ll get.?? And I?ve been trying for a year and it?s not happening.? It?ll happen eventually.? I think in hindsight, at that point, I should have gotten a little more aggressive about moving forward with infertility because 38, you know, you are getting up towards 40, and it?s harder to get pregnant.
G:?So Monica, you heard Heidi?s story.? Does that sound familiar?
M:?It does.? I didn?t go personally through infertility, but in my case, my first two pregnancies had happened very quickly.? I was able to conceive very quickly and then after Miranda died and I began trying to conceive again, I assumed it was going to happen quickly and then month after month, it didn?t happen and it didn?t happen and it didn?t happen.? And I was basing my entire future on getting pregnant again, and I don?t know that that?s what every bereaved mother does, but in my case, I wasn?t going to be happy again until I had a baby in my arms.
G:?Now, did you feel that way, Heidi?
H:?Absolutely.? Alexander was going to have a sibling.? I mean, I devoted my whole life to sibling loss and I miss my brother so much and here I had a son who was wonderful and I wanted him to experience a sibling like I had.? So come hell or high water, I was going to get ? I was bound and determined.? That was my job.? I was going to have a child one way or another.
M:?Yup.? And that?s how I felt, too.? I wanted a sibling for my two-year-old daughter so much, and I ? every month, like I said, I kept trying and trying, and it took me a year before I finally got pregnant and then six weeks later I had an early miscarriage and that was just another devastating blow.? It was like a slap in the face that after all I had been through, how could I be going through this again.
G:?Did you ? I?d like to ask this question of you and Heidi when we come back from break, but did you feel that your body had let you down, and you can think about that during break.? I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley, and we?re coming up on break.? Please stay tuned to hear more about ?Coping with Pregnancy and Infant Loss? with Monica Novak.
Heidi, before we get to the question I asked you two before we went to break about when you have a pregnancy loss, do you feel that your body has let you down?? Before we get to that question, I think you?ve got an email for us, right?
H:?Oh, yes.? Let me find it.?
G:?We love to get your emails, by the way, and again, as I said, if you will go into www.thegriefblog.com and ask us a question in there, we would be glad to personally answer it on the radio show.
H:?Okay, here?s the email.? I found it.? It says:
Dear Dr. Gloria, Dr. Heidi, and Monica:
Thank you so much for doing a show on pregnancy and infant loss.? I have had three miscarriages in the past two years and people keep saying things like, well, at least you know you can get pregnant, and don?t worry, you?ll eventually get pregnant.? These statements are very invalidating.? I am discouraged.? What do I say to these people?
G:?Wow.? That is such a temptation to say, too, oh, you can get pregnant again.? You got pregnant three times.
H:?They say it all the time.?
M:?Oh, yes.? It?s so common.
G:?Yeah.? What do you say to these people, Monica?
M:?Well, I did receive some comments like that.? Somebody said to me, well, maybe it was for the best, and I said, no, it was not for the best.? She was a perfectly perfect healthy baby and I wanted that baby, and in the case of miscarriage, people really don?t understand because they never saw the baby.? The didn?t hold the baby.? And in their mind, that wasn?t a baby, but to a mother, that was a baby, and that was like, Heidi, you said, that was your whole future, and you grieve that loss just as deeply, and so I think what you need to say to people is that was my baby, and I miss that baby, and I loved that baby already.? I had already bonded with that baby, and I wanted that baby.
G:?That?s great, isn?t it, Heidi?? Just do it straight up.
H:?Right.? Absolutely, a response like that is wonderful and just validating people?s loss and say, I?m so sorry for the loss of your child.? I?m so sorry that you had to go through this.? You know, people kept guaranteeing me that I would eventually have a child.? They didn?t.? They?re not psychic, and they had no idea if that was going to happen, and in my case, it didn?t happen.? I do have a daughter now, and I went and adopted her from China a year and a half ago, and I knew when I held her, she was the daughter I was always meant to have, and our kids come to us in many different ways.? So for some people, they may not get pregnant again, or carry to full term again.? We don?t know.
M:?That?s great.
G:?So just to our friend.? What was her name again, Heidi?
H:?Ann.
G:?To Ann, we want to say, do it straight up.? I love that Monica where you just say that was my baby.? I loved my baby.
H:?And I miss her and I?m grieving.
G:?And I?m grieving for her.? I think that?s a lovely way to put it.? Well, let?s get to that question I was asking Monica and Heidi.? We?ll start with Monica.? Did you feel your body had let you down when you had ? how do you feel when you have a miscarriage?
M:?I think this is a personal response because I think everybody feels differently.? I did feel let down, but I felt more let down in a spiritual sense.? I guess for me personally, I felt like God had let me down more than my body.? I knew I could get pregnant and I knew that I could carry a baby to term and so I couldn?t understand why this was being allowed to happen to me.? I didn?t feel like this was being done to me, but I felt like this was being allowed to happen and that?s what I really grappled with, but I do know several of my friends felt completely betrayed by their bodies and did put a lot of blame on their ? well, as Dawn put it, she had lost triplets
G:?One of the ladies in your book
M:?One of my friends.? She had lost triplets, and she had blamed her loss on her faulty fibroid body as she called it because she had been dealing with fibroids.
H:?That?s what I dealt with also.? And I felt the same way as Dawn.
G:?Yeah, talk about that Heidi.
H:?I definitely felt like my body had let me down.? I felt that I must be at fault.? Maybe it was the diet coke I had, or maybe it was ? I went through all these scenarios.? I didn?t have enough folic acid.? What did I do wrong?
G:?And you could also not even know you?re pregnant and say have a glass of wine or something and think well, that was it.
M:?True.
H:?Now and I know with ? in your case, Monica, you did go through a completely healthy and normal pregnancy until the very last day.
G:?And your baby was normal ? completely normal.? Just a fluke.
M:?Right.? It was an accident.? It was just one of those things.
H:?Right.? It was an accident.
G:?Now where there was a knot in the cord, did you question it?? Did I turn over wrong or, you know.
M:?No, I really.? She had an exceptionally long umbilical cord and I just felt like somehow earlier in the pregnancy she probably must have done some type of acrobatic to get it twisted up into a knot.? I really couldn?t explain that.
G:?You know people do things like falling down.? I mean, people who don?t want to be pregnant do crazy things not to be pregnant, and they don?t lose the baby.? I mean it?s just.? Who can know?? I used to have this idea and I know a lot of people in my age group did that the baby probably wasn?t normal anyway, and, you know, that?s not necessarily the case.
M:?No.
H:?And it?s not helpful if somebody says that to you.? Like you were saying, Monica, someone says it was meant to be, that means something was wrong.? That invalidates and minimizes our loss.
M:?Right, it does.
G:?And for you folks out there who have heard those kind of comments, we want to say, we don?t like em.? We don?t feel like they were right.? It?s too bad people are that ignorant or lacking of knowledge or insensitive, I guess I should put it, and just don?t know, but I love the idea of Monica?s just saying that was my baby.? And talk about the ultrasound, Heidi and Monica.? You know, how we bond with these kids so early now.
H:?I?d love to hear from Monica because I know that she?s had an ultrasound many times.
M:?Well, I didn?t have any ultrasounds during Miranda?s pregnancy, and one of the questions I kept asking myself after she had died was what if we had done an ultrasound?? Could we have prevented this?? And that question haunted me for the next two years.? At work, a co-worker found out about my knot as she was walking down the hallway behind me and just kind of blurted out, well, when I was pregnant, we did an ultrasound and saw the knot in the umbilical cord and we delivered my baby and she was fine.? And then she breezed out the door.? And that was devastating to me because I had been asking that question, and my doctor at that time just didn?t routinely do ultrasounds for a perfectly normal pregnancy.? And so when I got pregnant one year later after the miscarriage, then I became pregnant shortly after again with my daughter, Casey, my doctor took me in for repeated ultrasounds.? In fact, I think he was sneaking me into the ultrasound room without the office manager knowing because I was just on pins and needles.? It was a very scary pregnancy for me.? I knew there was nothing I could do to prevent another cord accident, but he would take me in for those repeated ultrasounds.? In the past, I had never wanted to know the sex of my baby, but this time I wanted to know everything about that baby from day one so I could get to know that baby.? I found out I was having a girl, and we had many ultrasounds and so I was able to not only feel her and hear her heartbeat, but see her on the screen.? And so, yes, you do bond with those babies very early on now.
H:?And I bet you were really aware of when she was moving, during that nine months, right?
M:?I was aware of when she was moving and I was aware of when she was not moving, which was, you know, it was a blessing one moment and then a curse the next moment.
G:?Oh, wow.? I know one of the ladies in your book ? just to show how the bonding goes ? actually sent an ultrasound picture of her baby out in her Christmas card.? And Heidi you were saying that ultrasound is so much more sophisticated.
H:?It?s amazing.? As you know, Monica, babies look like they look when they?re born nowadays in ultrasounds.? It?s three-dimensional.? It?s so advanced.? When you get these pictures, they really look like the kids.
M:?Yeah, you can see the features quite often.
H:?You can.
G:?Amazing connections.? Well, I wanted to ask you, Monica, what are some of the myths and taboos regarding pregnancy loss?
M:?I think probably one of the biggest ones that I came across and I think my friends would agree with me is that people in the general public who haven?t experienced this really don?t expect you to grieve very long or at all for a baby that maybe you didn?t see or maybe they didn?t see and didn?t get to hold, and so they expect that because it was a being that was with you such a short amount of time, there?s no grief involved so you should be getting over it and back to normal fairly quickly, and that is absolutely wrong.? There?s a very deep grief process going on here, and it can last for a very long time.
G:?And you?re hormonally prepared to have this baby.
M:?Oh, absolutely.? When my milk came in, thank God I was prepared for that, but some of my friends were not prepared for their milk to come in so they were sent home from the hospital without their babies and then their milk supply came in and that was devastating to be producing milk for a baby that was never going to drink it.
G:?What about the taboos of talking about it?? You know, I was reading your book and I was saying to Heidi, it seems to me that one of the issues about, and by the way, I was reading a pre-copy.? Monica was very nice to send me the book that will not be actually out probably for a few months but we?ll have it on our blog.? It?s a wonderful book.? Very interesting.? But one of the things that I felt about it was it could be difficult.? People need to tell their stories and some of the details of having a premature baby can be pretty graphic.
H:?Or a miscarriage.
G:?Or a miscarriage can be pretty graphic for ? if people don?t like to hear about body issues.? It can be kind of graphic.? So it?s hard.? I would think it might be hard for people to tell their story.? Heidi and I are always saying that people need to tell the details of their story, the ones that really hurt, and sometimes those are connected with delivery issues that some people may not be able to hear about or may not want to hear about.
M:?That?s the beauty of the support group because you can go into a setting like a support group where there are other parents who have experienced the same loss.? Many of them have had the premature babies or the very late trimester miscarriages and know that they can not only talk about their babies, but bring pictures.? We have memory night usually once a year at the support group where everybody can bring in any mementos they have and quite frequently these are Polaroid pictures or regular photos that were snapped of these babies at a very early gestation, but every one of those babies is so beautiful not only to their parents but to every other parent in that room, and it?s just so wonderful to see other people look at your baby and smile at your baby when you don?t know if you can show those pictures to anybody else, not even sometimes to your friends and your family.? You know, you may not feel comfortable showing those photos but you know in a support group setting you can do that, and I would encourage people to show those photos and share about their baby with anybody who?s close to them because you may be surprised at how much support you actually do get.? You don?t know until you try.
G:?And you might ask somebody in advance, you know.
M:?That?s true.
H:?Can I show you the photos?
M:?That?s true.? But quite often, I think, people will realize that the photos maybe aren’t as bad as they might be imagining or as difficult to look at as they would imagine.
G:?Well, and I would say to our audience out there, if you haven?t gone to a support group and you have details of the birth of this baby or of the miscarriage that you really ? it?s hard for the world to hear.? Go find a group, a support group.? Go online.? Find Share.? Go to a Compassionate Friends group.? Go somewhere where you can tell that story.? I don?t care if it?s been three years, four years, maybe you?ve had another relative die now and you?re back ten years, and, you know, maybe now?s the time to go tell the story.
H:?I agree, because you could feel very isolated.
M:?Absolutely, and that was the number one emotion I would say that I felt shortly after Miranda?s death was I felt so alone, and I had wonderful support from my family and friends, but I felt so alone.? I didn?t think that any of them could possibly fathom the pain that I was feeling at that moment and that support group became my lifeline because all of those people understood, and I would also recommend if you?re going to find a support group, please try and give it at least two meetings, if not three.? The first one is very emotional.? You may not even be able to talk during your first meeting, and that?s okay because most support groups are open and will allow you to just sit and listen, but I found that the second and the third meetings were much easier to go to, and so I would please encourage people not to stop after their first meeting.
G:?Absolutely.
H:?Yeah, that?s what they say at Compassionate Friends meetings also.
G:?Yeah.? I mean the first time you go, you?re just nervous and you don?t even know if you can find the building and, you know, you?re probably going to be late, and you know what, that?s fine.? Everybody understands being late to a first meeting, too, so try to seek something out.? Well, we?re coming up on break and I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley, with my co-host, Dr. Heidi Horsley.? Please stay tuned to hear more from Monica Novak about ?Coping with Pregnancy and Infant Loss.?? You can reach us through our blog, www.thegriefblog.com.? Remember all these shows are archived on the www.thecompassionatefriends.org website as well as our website, www.thegriefblog.com, and you can also download transcripts of the show.? If you?ve got friends who don?t have a computer or don?t know how to turn it on or whatever, download those transcripts for them.? Stay tuned for more.
Well, this is our last break, and I want to remind our audience that October is Pregnancy and Infant Awareness Month.? We?ve got a little something that Monica Novak wrote for us on the blog that you can read about this month so I hope you?ll think about your friends and family who?ve lost ? and the people that you work with who?ve lost infants and had pregnancy loss and how meaningful it is.? This has certainly come into play for me.? We were just talking during break about the fact that I really have never thought about being a grandparent and grieving the loss of Heidi?s two pregnancy losses.? Do you want to talk about grandparents a little bit, Monica?
M:?Sure.? When Miranda died, I was grieving so intensely but I also knew that my parents were grieving.? In fact, they came to the hospital and they held her alone in a room but then we ended up bringing Miranda into my room because I wanted to hold her again and so my parents sat by my side and as we held her, we all cried together, and I knew how deeply hurt my parents were also by the loss of their grandchild, but also they were grieving for me for my loss, and so it was a double, really a double grieving for them, and for many months, I couldn?t talk to my mother about my grief because I knew how much she was hurting and I knew we would just fall apart and I was too vulnerable to put myself in that position and so my mom knew that I was going to a support group here in the Chicago suburbs, but she lived in Indiana and tried to find a support group to go to but there just weren’t any grandparent support groups available.? She did go to a couple of groups for parents but she said she didn?t quite feel like she fit in although they were very welcoming to her and I would still encourage somebody to seek that out if that?s all that?s available.? But she really wanted to find a group of grandparents that she could talk with and I don?t think that she ever did and eventually as our pain subsided and we began the healing process on our own, we could finally come together and start to talk about Miranda a little bit.
G:?Now I want to say that Compassionate Friends is for grandparents, siblings, and parents, and I believe Bereaved Parents U.S.A., too.
M:?Um hm.
G:?But I can understand
M:?There is a group for grandparents.
G:?Alliance of Grandparents.? I notice you have this in your book.? Wonderful support area for pregnancy loss in your book.? That Alliance of Grandparents.? Is that what you were talking about?
M:?I?m not sure what it?s called, but on my website, that same resource section that will appear in the back of my book is on my website, and there is a group just for grandparents.
G:?Yeah, and I would suggest that you go to Monica?s website.? It?s really an amazing website, and it is www.thegoodgriefclub.com.
M:?And you can also reach me by email through going to my website if you have specific questions.
G:?Do you want to give your email?
M:?My email is ? well, actually I have two that you can get to me by.? The one that?s on your blog I believe is thegoodgriefclub@comcast.net, but you can also get to me by monica@thegoodgriefclub.com, I believe.? If you go to my website, it?ll hook you up to me.
G:?Well, Monica, in your book, you talk a little bit about that losing Miranda really taught you something.? What did it teach you?
M:?Oh, many many things.? Probably first and foremost was not to take anything for granted because up until that point in my life, things had gone pretty smoothly.? I had a wonderful husband, a beautiful daughter, and really had not experienced any type of tragedy in my life whatsoever, and so I just sort of expected that that?s how my entire life was going to go and I joke about it in the book that I felt like Marsha Brady.? My boyfriend used to call me that.? I was leading a charmed life is how I felt and never anticipated that anything like this could happen, and so when this happened to me, I learned first to take stock of what you do have in your life.? The wonderful people around you.? Even if you don?t have living children, there must be something wonderful that you can find to be grateful for.? And then appreciate every moment that you possibly can with the people that you love or doing the things that you love to do or just the beauty of nature.
G:?So taking care of yourself.? You?ve appreciated things more.? One thing I wanted to get back to quickly because I felt like I left it without finishing before we close the show is that take care of your body.? It?s the body you?ve got, and the feeling of let down, that your body let you down, somehow you need to love and appreciate your body is what comes up for me.? Do you have any thought about that, Heidi, because you felt that way?
H:?I agree with that, and also be good to yourself while you?re grieving because I?m thinking of all these women.? Here they are grieving a loss and they?re trying to recover from a pregnancy and in many cases a delivery and that?s very difficult.
G:?Absolutely.? Monica, do you have any special thoughts on that as we close the show?
M:?Yeah, I definitely ? regarding that topic, taking care of yourself?? Definitely ask for help, and when people offer you help, please take it because they genuinely want to help, and they may not know what to say to you so you may receive help in the form of a dinner, and they may not be able to say how sorry they are, but they may be able to say it through food.? So let them do that.? Let people cook for you.? Let people clean for you.? Let people handle chores that you just can?t deal with when you?re grieving.
G:?And, Monica, it?s time for us to close the show, and I want to thank you so much for being on, and do you have any last comment before I read a little piece from your book, The Good Grief Club that will be out in a few months?
M:?I just am so grateful that you are having me on the show and bringing to light a topic that is out there and is so important.? So many people misunderstand it, and I think, I just want the world to know that if you?re grieving, take care of yourself, love yourself, and if you?re with somebody who?s grieving and you don?t know what to say, just say I?m sorry and give a hug and know that, I hate to say this, with time it gets easier and it can, and for me it did, and my friends and I eventually found peace and happiness again, and we found true joy in our lives and it took some time, but those friendships are what got us through.
G:?Thank you, Monica, and I wanted to read this from her book as we close the show.? When a baby dies, we feel the absence of the child for the rest of our lives yet we don?t have to remain in grief.? I believe our babies are whispering in our ears, let go of the pain and be whole again.? We?re always with you.? It?s time to close the show now.? I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley, with my co-host, Dr. Heidi Horsley.? Please stay tuned again next week when our topic will be ?Arriving on the Scene: A Son Dies in an Automobile Crash? with Khris Ford.? Her son, Stephen, was killed in an automobile accident.? This show is archived on our blog, www.thegriefblog.com, as well as www.thecompassionatefriends.org website.? Please stay tuned next Thursday at 9:00 Pacific Standard Time, 12:00 Eastern, for Healing the Grieving Heart.? Thanks for listening.? I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley, with my co-host
H:?Dr. Heidi Horsley.? Monica, your daughter Miranda lives on in your memories and in all the work you do.? Thank you for acknowledging and validating pregnancy and infant loss.
M:?Thank you both for having me.

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