HEALING THE GRIEVING HEART

Hosts:? Dr. Gloria Horsley and Dr. Heidi Horsley
With guest:? Margaret Margo
March 22, 2007
G:?Hello.? I?m Dr. Gloria Horsley with my co-host
H:?Dr. Heidi Horsley.
G:?Each week we welcome you to Healing the Grieving Heart, a show of hope and renewal and conversation for those who?ve suffered the loss of a loved one and for health care professionals who work in this most difficult field.? As always the message is others have been there before you and made it, you need not walk alone.? And if you?re listening to our Thursday live Internet show, please join Heidi, me and our guest on the show by calling our toll free number 1-866-472-5792 with questions or comments regarding the losses in your life.? These shows are archived on our blog, www.thegriefblog.com, as well as www.thecompassionatefriends.org websites.? All shows can be downloaded through Itunes and transcripts can be accessed on www.thegriefblog.com.? Well, Heidi, good morning.
H:?Good morning, mom.
G:?Great to be on the show.? We?ve had some great things happen during the week.? If you go to www.thegriefblog.com, our blog, you can read where we have had George write in to us and asked how do I know when I?ve finished grieving?? I?ve put in some nice comments and then Heidi and I commented on them and we hope that you?ll read them but also that you will bring your personal issues regarding your loss because Heidi, I really think these are general and universal problems, don?t you?
H:?Absolutely, and people can also respond to George?s email with their own opinions and things that they?ve been through.? The message we gave George is everybody grieves differently.? We all do it in our own time.? There?s some judgment going on about if George has grieved properly, if he?s grieved the right way, and we?re all on our own path.
G:?Absolutely, so, as I said, log in to our website, www.thegriefblog.com, put in your comments, we?ll comment, and then comment on other people?s.? Another thing that?s happened to us that?s been very nice is the Amelia Center in Birmingham, Alabama, on their web page has listed us as a new resource and this is really very significant because they?re a wonderful center in Birmingham and they specialize in hope for grieving children and parents, and also they?re advertising their big national conference is coming up that they?re sponsoring this spring, April 27.? It?s a bereavement conference and Dr. Robert Neimeyer, who is really a wonderful person in the field of grief and loss is going to be the main speaker there.? You can also read about that on our blog and figure out how to log in to that.? So, isn?t that a nice thing, Heidi, that they?ve listed us??
H:?Yes, because we need to get the word out that we are here.? There are so many people that are at home grieving in a lot of pain and feel so alone and so isolated and all they need to do is turn on the Internet and hear Margaret and my mom and me talk about our experience.? It?s a life line to many people.? So the more we can let people know that we?re here, the less alone they?ll feel.
G:?Absolutely.? Well, we have someone who wanted to call in and I?m not sure if we?re going to get her, Heid, or not, but is Deni there?? No, don?t think she got in on the show so we might be able to get her later, but why don?t we go ahead, Heidi, and introduce our fabulous guest for the day.
H:?Great.? Our guest today is Margaret Margo and our topic is Double Loss: A Mentally Ill Son Kills His Father and Himself.? In 2001, Margaret Margo watched her youngest son, Steve, kill his father, Sal, and then himself.? The murder suicide of her loving husband and son motivated Margaret to write The Uninvited Guest.? Margaret tells her story in the hope that other families won?t slip through the cracks of the mental health system.? On this show Margaret will share with us the inner strength that sustains her.? She is the founding member and resource development director of Listening Well, an organization which provides mental health education and awareness programs for individuals, organizations, and communities.? Welcome to the show, Margaret.
M:?Thank you very much and thank you for having me on the show to allow me to use my book as a platform to bring awareness, hope, educate, and most of all to break the stigma of mental illness.
G:?Well Margaret I was just really impressed by your book.? It?s a great book, The Uninvited Guest, and I think you can get it through amazon, can?t you??
M:?Yes, you can.
G:?I was just trying to get our blog master to put it on the blog so hopefully it?ll be on by the time we end the show or by tomorrow, but it?s such a beautiful book and the wonderful pictures of your family.? I wanted to give people a quick run down on your family before you tell your story because it is quite a family.
M:?It is.
G:?In 1965, I believe, you were widowed and you had three girls, Peggy, Barbara, and Sherry, right?
M:?Correct.
G:?And then you married Sal in 1968 and Sal had three boys, Sal, Jr., Sam and Steven, and so kind of the Brady Bunch, but when our listeners listen to this and I?m going to remind them during each segment, the girls are biologically yours and the boys are biologically your husband?s; however, you really mixed it all up, didn?t you?
M:?Yes, we sure did, and the only steps to our family was the steps walking through our front door.? We were one big family.
H:?That?s great.
G:?In the book it just emanates all the love you had for one another.? Well, I wanted to start with your whole journey before we got into your last tragedy where Steven stabbed your husband, Sal, and then himself.? I want to talk about your journey early on.? You had a husband die as a young mother with three girls, right?
M:?I did.? And Gloria and Heidi, I dealt with the loss of my spouse at the age of 26.? He was a young father and we had three little girls and he died of leukemia in 1965 at the age of 30.
G:?Wow, quite a loss.? And was he ill for a long time?
M:?You know, he was diagnosed and died six months later.?
G:?Oh, my gosh, so very quick death with three small girls.
M:?Yes, and then, of course, which I know you read my book, I lost my daughter, Peggy, at the age of 30, exactly the same age as her father, from melanoma.
G:?In 1988, right?
M:?That?s correct.? Yeah, Peggy died December 21 and was buried the day after Christmas in 1988.
G:?And then how many years later before you lost Sal and Steven?
M:?Seventeen years.
G:?Seventeen years later.? Well, and all those losses, I?m wondering, is there any preparation or is it all different?
M:?Very different.? With the loss of my husband, my girls? father and Peggy, I had a chance to say good-bye.? We talked.? We shared.? We prayed together.? My background was very stark Catholic Christian Irish family, and of course, I had that opportunity, and with my double loss in June of 2001, it wasn?t like that.?
G:?So very different.? And getting back, was it different having a spouse die, because I know we have folks listening, to having a child die?
M:?You know, Peggy was my first-born.? She was my introduction to motherhood.? And she was lovely.? A beautiful baby.? A beautiful young lady and she was just so full of life and energy that yes, it is very different.? You want to trade places with your child.
H:?I would think to a certain extent that parents die first and then children.
M:?Exactly, Heidi, that?s so true, and when you watch a young person.? She was diagnosed with melanoma at the age of 28, and we went through all the treatments and all, and when it re-occurred two years later after she had gone into remission, it was like the first day the doctor said your daughter is a fourth stage melanoma and it?s very grim.? That feeling just comes back and you say, oh, no, Lord, why not me.? I?m the parent.? She?s the child.? So it is.? It?s very different.
G:?And then having, do you call it a murder with Steven?
M:?I do.
G:?Uh, huh.? And then having a murder of your husband.? Let?s go for it looking at it that way, and then losing a child that you really had raised.
M:?Well, you know, the double loss of Steve and his father on the evening that it occurred in our home.? His dad had picked him up to come to dinner, to share a nice evening, which we had done in the past, but this evening was entirely different.? Steve was very quiet and very preoccupied.?
G:?It?s time for us to come to break, Margaret, so I would like to save that until we come back from break, and I?m your host Dr. Gloria Horsley with my co-host Dr. Heidi Horsley and we are talking today with Margaret Margo, and we?re talking about a double loss, a mentally ill son kills his father and then himself.? We?re talking to Margaret about her wonderful journey with her book and we?ll be talking about how she?s gone on to help in the mental health field with people who are having problems so please stay tuned to hear more.
Oh, Margaret, there?s so much more to your story than we actually put in the intro because I hadn?t read your book completely yet, and it?s just an amazing story, and for those who have just joined us, I want to give them a quick run down again.? Margaret had three girls and her husband died of leukemia in 1965.? She married Sal, and Sal had three boys, Sal, Jr., Sam and Steven, so when you hear the girls, it?s Margaret?s biological children, and the boys are Sal?s biological children, and they married in 1968 and then they had their daughter, Peggy, die of melanoma in 1988 and then 17 years later, Steven, who suffered from schizophrenia since the age of ? well, forever, really, if you knew, didn?t he, Margaret?
M:?That?s correct.
G:?He had all those signs that we hear about.? Don?t we hear about them, Heidi?? The kids who have problems in school and nobody knows why.
H:?Right, absolutely, and the parents can?t figure out what?s going on.? They know something?s up, right, Margaret?
M:?That?s correct.? When Steve started self-medicating in high school, we had no idea that it was a mental problem and he would have a diagnosis of paranoia schizophrenia.? We thought he was in with the wrong crowd.? Tried to get him the counseling he needed and he would just be fine.?
G:?And we hear that story so much from parents who have suffered from schizophrenic children because he didn?t decompensate, which the therapy world calls it, until he went into the Navy, and that is not unusual where they really go ? didn?t he really go to pieces after he left?
M:?Yes, correct, and after the death of our oldest daughter.
G:?How did he deal with that?
M:?That?s when he was diagnosed.? He was in the Navy, had gotten all through boot camp, was getting ready to be shipped out, and Peggy?s melanoma progressed, and we lost her, as I said, in December.? Steven went into a deep depression and we thought well, him being the youngest of the family, her being the eldest, they had a special bond and we thought we?ll go down and visit quite often until he gets shipped out and we?ll help pull him out of it.? It didn?t happen that way.? The depression got worse and worse.? Then he was diagnosed in the Navy and was medically discharged and sent home.
G:?And then no place for him to go.
M:?Exactly.? That?s when I talk about the revolving door and the stigma.? And just one little thing I wanted to say is when Peggy was suffering from cancer, the melanoma that took her life, our family and friends were so compassionate.? We felt so blessed to have all this support, but believe it or not, due to the stigma, when Steven came home with a diagnosis of paranoia schizophrenia, it was very very different.? They were caring but not on that same level, if you understand.
H:?Well, on some level people think he can control it or what?s going on that he?s like this?? Why can?t he change?? Why can?t the family change him?? People don?t realize this is a disease.
M:?Exactly, and with all that love and care that we thought surrounded Steve, that he would never be able to hurt.? We had never seen him violent.
G:?He was such a handsome guy, too, from the pictures.
M:?And you know, Heidi and Gloria, he was, and this just amazes me.? When I look at the other two siblings, Sam and Sal.? Steven walked like his father, looked like his father in a uniform in the Navy.? I put Sal?s picture side by side with Steve.? They were both Navy people.? They looked identical.
G:?I know.? I saw that they looked a lot alike in the pictures.
H:?And you?re saying that he wasn?t violent until the night that he committed the homicide or was there a history of violence before that?
M:?He was our peace maker growing up.?
H:?So can we go back to that night so I can get a better understanding of what it looked like and what happened.
M:?What happened was that due to the fact that Steven was paranoia schizophrenia and lived in a group home, he didn?t trust the people that cooked his meals so his dad, being the Italian father, you feed your son, Steven had begun to lose quite a bit of weight.? So Sal said, ?Do you trust mom?s cooking??? ?Oh, yes.?? ?Well, I?ll pick you up every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and you can come and share dinner with us.?? He had did that for several months but this night was different.? Not like the other Friday nights when we shared dinner with him.? He was extremely quiet and appeared to be very preoccupied and that?s where I ? I addressed him, I said, Steve, how did your day go today?? Okay.? Where it usually was well, I did this or I did that or I had to go get my medications, which, I want to stress, even though Steve was on medication and that was in his system only his medication, not self-medicating, not street drugs, not any of the other.? He was on his psych meds at the time of this tragedy.
G:?And it?s so fast.? It brought back a memory to me.? I had a schizophrenic aunt and I was at my grandfather?s summer cabin and I walked into the kitchen and I said, hello, Aunt Uarda.? She grabbed a knife and went for me and fortunately her daughter walked into the room.? It is so fast.
H:?Wow.? I never heard that story.? That?s amazing.
G:?It is so incredibly fast, and I?ve known her all my life and saw her after that.? But that moment.? I said, ?How are you?? and she said, ?Don?t ever say that to me again,? and she grabbed a knife and went after me.
M:?I think at that time when we look back on Steve?s being in the Navy, I think that?s when he suffered his first episode unbeknown to us at the time.? We looked at it like, ?Oh, my goodness.? He?s really got a depression problem here.? We need to get him help.?? But never dreaming the end diagnosis would be paranoia schizophrenia.
G:?Now, tell me.? Looking at the mental health system, I?ve always found there?s a little blame of families.? Is there something wrong with your family?? Did you feel any of that?
M:?I think that the stigma prevented family members from talking about it.? The boys would attend family reunions on their biological side of the family and no one talked about it but they since Steve?s death have said to me, ?When I look back now, there was so much there that we feel could be us.?
G:?Did you feel any criticism from the mental health community that maybe your family hadn?t done right by him or that there was confusion in your family or anything like that or did you feel supported?
M:?I felt supported by Steve?s hands-on doctor and I refer to him as Dr. T and he does a lot of speaking for me when I do my health series because I?m mental health director at St. Joseph?s Community and when Father Tiffabar comes and speaks, he always, and I don?t.? He?s a therapist, a psychiatrist, and he?ll always say, thank you for having me here to support you in the work.? You didn?t only support your son.? You were over the top to help him get the care but there was only so much we could do for him.
G:?Absolutely.? You even went to classes and were a semi-expert in the field.
M:?That?s correct.
G:?In the back of your book, you?ve got wonderful information about schizophrenia also.
H:?And also on your website.? You?ve got great things about how when people don?t agitate.? If they?re in a bad place, don?t get them upset.? Don?t challenge them.? A lot of ways to calm a situation down and not isolate it.
M:?Exactly, and if Steve would have showed us some of that on that Friday night, June 29, 2001, I would and Sal would have.
H:?So he had the negative symptoms.
M:?had used some of those tools but we honestly did not see.
H:?He had what they call the negative symptoms.? The withdrawn, the quiet, so that you didn?t know what was going on internally for him it sounds like.
M:?Exactly.?
H:?And what kind of voices he may have been hearing or what kind of things might have been happening with him.? Okay, I?m just trying to get the vision of that night.? I guess I?m kind of stuck there in my head.? You guys were all sitting around the table and he?s very withdrawn?
M:?Yes, and he was sitting at one end of the table and his dad at the other and I was walking.? I had taken a phone call and I was walking into the dining area and Sal got up and walked to the kitchen and said, ?Great dinner.? I?m going to catch the news.?? And he headed into the living room.? With that, with no warning whatsoever, no words exchanged, Steve stood up and started into the kitchen and I had my knife block sitting on the counter.? I thought he was heading into the kitchen to get another glass of milk and to do something.? He walked out with a 7-inch knife in his hand, and I looked at him and I said, ?Steve, what are you doing??? And he just glared at me.? I talk about that in the monologue that I do with the Listening Well, and he just looked at me with a look that was like.? You know, he didn?t take one step toward me.
H:?So was he looking through you in a way?
M:?Exactly.? And he made one big turn and then headed into the living room and I yelled, ?Sal, Steven?s got a knife.?? He didn?t stab his father in the back.? He reached around him so Sal was facing the knife coming at him and I ran to my sunroom and called 911.? And by then I heard the commotion Sal was wrestling with him for the knife but what happened is when that was taking place, the knife went in.? Sal went down and it killed him instantly.
G:?We?ve got to come up on break right now at this point so when we come back, we?ll rejoin Margaret Margo to talk about her mentally ill son, Steven, killing her husband Sal.
Well, when we went to break, we were really at a very key spot.? We were talking about how Steven had come home to get a good meal with his dad and mom and how he had gone in the kitchen and taken a knife and gone into the living room where his dad, Sal, was sitting and basically stabbed him and Margaret, you went into the other room to call 911, is that it?
M:?That?s correct.
G:?And so you?re in calling and what happened then?
M:?Actually, Gloria, Sal was walking into the living room.? He hadn?t got to his chair and sat down yet.? And Steven ? his father was 6-feet tall.? Steve was about six one, and Steven had very long arms like 33, 34 shirt length where his father was a smaller type physically.? When Steve reached around his dad and the knife went in and Sal went down bending down, the knife hit his main artery and Sal went down.? Steven went across the room and he started stabbing himself and yelling oh, no, dad, oh, no.? So what my therapist and most of the doctors I?ve spoke to in my traveling and speaking engagements tell me that sometimes after the surge, they come out of their state and that he realized it was his father.? Prior to that time, we don?t know the voice that was commanding him to do this horrible thing.? And that is the reason I titled the book The Uninvited Guest.
H:?And maybe he was in so much pain seeing what he had done to his father that he couldn?t deal with it so he said I?ve got to take my own life because I can?t believe I killed someone that I love so much.
M:?And seeing his father on the floor, I think it just hit him like oh, my God, it?s dad.? And, well, he stabbed himself four times through the chest cavity and once through the heart.? The investigators that investigated the homicide said he died a horrifying death.
G:?And you thought that was your husband they were taking to the hospital and that Steven was dead, right?
M:?Exactly.? Because like we talked about that Steve looks so much like his father.? He was a clone of his dad and they got them mixed up when they told me.? They came downstairs where they had had me standing with my neighbors and my friends while they could get in here and do their job and they told me that my son had died instantly and they were transporting my husband to the trauma unit at Dominican Hospital.
G:?And that was really Steven your son that they were taking.
M:?Exactly.? We were all there waiting thinking it was Sal and it was Steve.
G:?Could you read in your book on page 30 where you tell about when you forgave him because I think this is amazing because you found out he was dead and you went in to see his body.
M:?Well, what happened was they came in.? Roy and the doctor that was working on Steve while we were in this little room down the hall, came into the room and said there had been a horrible mistake, that a young man who was a male nurse had attended high school with Steve and had surfed.? We live on the ocean and he had surfed with Steve.? And when they kept saying Sal, can you hear me?? Drew said, ?This is not Sal.? He has a brother Sal and a father Sal but this is Steven Margo.? I went to high school with him.?? And that?s when they realized and they came into the room and told us about the terrible mistake and that apparently Sal was the person that expired in our family home, not my son.? And then they said that they would prepare Steve and anyone that would like to come in and say good-bye could.? And the part that I think about is as a mother, I?ve raised this young man since he was in kindergarten.? He was my son and I knew he could not have been in the right frame of mind to do what he did and even though it was confusion and it was chaos and devastation, I knew I had to stand up and go in that room and ask God to forgive him.
G:?And then can you read from page 30 where it starts I ? you did this reading for Steven when you scattered his ashes.
M:?Oh, you want me to read the whole reading?
G:?No, just that last paragraph where you say that was the reading I did for Steven and I knew that forgiveness was in my heart and then where it starts ?I? because I think this is amazing.
M:?Okay.? I stood up in that trauma room at the unit and I walked into that room where they had been working on him and he had been pronounced dead.? I looked at that face and I touched his head.? I knew the Lord gave me the power to forgive, the power to understand that it wasn?t in my control to forgive.? It was the power of the Holy Spirit and I know in my heart of hearts that was the only way I could have done that.
G:?That is amazing.? The faith and forgiveness that you?ve had, isn?t it, Heidi?
H:?Absolutely, and what a wonderful gift to give Steven?s siblings.
M:?You know, Heidi and Gloria, the one thing that I ? not one of my family, his biological brothers nor his sisters stood up to accompany me.? It was my son-in-law that just said you?re not going in there alone.? I?m going in with you and he walked in with me.
G:?Is this the son-in-law that also cleaned up the house after?
M:?Yes.? Gary.
G:?And you actually went back to the house.? How did you do that?? How did you get the courage to do it and what would you suggest to others?
M:?Well, this is what I felt in my heart of hearts.? I stayed with my daughter, Sherry, for six weeks because they were doing all kinds of things here at the house and it had to be cleaned up and recarpeted and everything.? So when everyone kept saying, are you going to go back home?? Are you going to go back home?? And I thought this is the home that Sal and I shared.? Not that I was trying to hang on to something that wasn?t there but a home is your home and I don?t know how and I don?t know why the Lord has gifted me with this.? Not once since I came back have I visualized that awful thing that took place on that Friday night.
G:?So you haven?t had any nightmares or anything.? Some of our folks talk about having nightmares.
M:?I haven?t.? Now you tell me why, Gloria?? I haven?t had to be on medication and it?s not about me.? I feel it?s just the first year that I was in therapy.? My therapist would say to me, ?Margaret, you have an inner strength you?re not even aware of.? Where do you think that comes from??? And I really can?t say other than it?s a gift.? It?s a true gift.
G:?And was it this therapist you said wanted you to be angry or said aren?t you angry?
M:?I should be angry.? I should have anger.? But you know, there we go again, if you think of the person that gives so much for his son and he?s gone, would he feel better about me being an angry, hateful, distraught person or would he want me to be the Nonny that I am to my grandchildren, the mother I am to Sal and Sam and Barb and Sherry and try to not be in a situation where I am not in control of my own life.
H:?And saying you should be angry ? we?re passing judgment on how somebody should grieve and we all grieve in different ways.
M:?That?s so true.
G:?Absolutely, I know you were saying that Barbara was angry.
M:?Very angry.? Very angry at her brother Steven.? How could Steven do this?? How could he have hurt his dad?? You and pop have done so much for him.? But you know what happened I think there, they seem to forget he was not in a normal state of mind.? She says that now.? She said mom it was just that he took someone, our pillar of our family.
G:?But, do you accept the fact that she grieves with anger and you don?t and Sal, Jr., acted out at a time with alcohol which Heidi and I have found that quite a lot of our men tell us that.
M:?Yes, and you know the sad part is that I think when you have that much anger and that much confusion in your life after a terrible tragedy that they didn?t take the time to mourn Steven?s death.? They were so involved in their loss of their father that they forgot all about this young man.
G:?Their sibling, yeah.? Now let me ask you.? You lost your first husband in 1965 and did you find any difference in having a husband die of leukemia and having your husband murdered?? Did you have any perspective between the two or did you think it didn?t matter?
M:?You know, I have to be honest with you.? With Sal, I didn?t get a chance.? I tried to say good-bye.? I tried to hold him and put a wet towel on his face and all until the emergency people got here but I felt like I couldn?t have that same chance to ? and I?ve often told my friends and I told my therapist, if he could come back one day, I?d like to thank him for all the good he did for our family and what a great provider he was, and with Bob, I got that opportunity.? And the only thing, Heidi, I know this sounds very immature but he died a very young man.? All pop?s concern was please remind my girls who I am and that I was a part of their life.
G:?And how about your children now?? Peggy, who died in 1988 of melanoma, and then Steven who actually took your husband?s life and then killed himself, any thoughts about those two?? Any difference?
M:?I just felt like Peggy wasn?t in control of the melanoma.? I remember her saying to her doctor, her oncologist, ?My life is in your hands.?? In Steven?s situation, I didn?t feel he got the same care that Peggy got.? I got to be in the hospital room for the last nine days of her life.? I slept at UCSF in the hospital room with her.? I read her scripture.? I was there for her.? With Steven, it was just a bloody blur.
G:?It?s time for us to come up on break again.
We were just saying during break that we hope that we?ve given you enough about how Margaret has gone on with her faith and forgiveness and all that she?s done, but I think just her story and the way she tells it lets you know that she?s been able to do some integration of this in her life, but all the wonderful things that she?s doing with mental health and her book is great and she?s going to be at The Compassionate Friends conference in July as Heidi and I are, and she?s going to do a guest signing of her great book, The Uninvited Guest, and you can also pick it up on amazon and she has a website.? Margaret, do you want to give us your website?
M:?Yes.? It?s www.theuninvitedguest.org and all the proceeds of my book support the non profits here in Santa Cruz County.
G:?Oh, that?s great, and you speak all over.? People can have you come and speak?
M:?I do.? I?ve spoke at quite a few luncheons and Christian luncheons and I travel around a little bit and get out there and wherever I can do it, I do a six-week mental health series here in Santa Cruz County, and we normally get as many speakers that we can to bring awareness, break the stigma and educate.
G:?So you?ve found a why to go on and a how.
H:?That?s what I was going to ask, Mom.? I was going to add to that Margaret, you?ve lost two husbands and two children and that?s what I?m thinking, how have you done all this and you?ve told us a little bit.? How have you survived all this?
M:?Do you know, I think, as a young child I always had a connection to the Lord, to healing, and to become a survivor and the way I?ve done that is I accept what I can not change and I change what I can.? I know it?s a prayer that 12-step people have used since the big book but for me every time I walk, and I walk four miles a day, I put my little hand on that and that?s my prayer.? To accept what I can not change and change what I can, and I feel that that has been my survival.
G:?Well, Margaret, you are inspiration to me and I?m sure to thousands of people out there and keep up the message and the good work you?re doing.? It?s a wonderful thing.
M:?Oh, thank you so much, and again, thank you for having me on the show.
G:?And thanks for being on the show.? Stay on after, we?ll have a little chat.? It?s time for us to close our show and I want to thank our guest, Margaret Margo, and please stay tuned again next week when our guest will be Jo Ann Glim and it will be on building memorial gardens to honor our children.? This show is archived on our blog www.thegriefblog.com as well as www.thecompassionatefriends.org website.? Please stay tuned again next Thursday at 9:00 Pacific time, 12:00 Eastern for more of Healing the Grieving Heart, a show of hope and renewal and support.? Remember, others have been there and made it.? You can, too.? You need not walk alone.? Thanks for listening.? I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley, and
H:?Dr. Heidi Horsley.? Margaret, Peggy, Steven, Sal, and Bob live on in your heart and memories and in all the work that you do to raise awareness about mental illness.? Thank you.
M:?Thank you.

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