HEALING THE GRIEVING HEART
Our Grief Journey
Hosts:? Dr. Gloria Horsley and Dr. Heidi Horsley
February 1, 2007
G:?Hello.? I?m Dr. Gloria Horsley with my co-host
H:?Dr. Heidi Horsley.
G:?Each week we welcome you to Healing the Grieving Heart, a show of hope and conversation with those who have suffered the loss of a loved one and for health care professionals who work in this most difficult field.? As always, the message is others have been there before you and made it, you do not walk alone.? If you?re listening to our Thursday live Internet show, please join Heidi and me on the show by calling our toll-free number 1-866-472-5792 with questions or comments regarding the losses in your life.? These shows are archived on our blog, www.thegriefblog.com as well as www.thecompassionatefriends.org websites.? All shows can be downloaded on Itunes and transcripts are available if you go to our website www.thegriefblog.com.? Well, good morning, Heidi.
H:?Good morning, mom.
G:?It?s great to talk to you.
H:?Good talking to you.
G:?I am in Arizona.? I mean?I?m not in Arizona.? I?m in Texas.? Excuse me, Texans.? I meant our studio is in Arizona, and Heidi is in New York, and I?m in Austin, Texas, and I?m having quite the experience today.? I?m down here as a bereaved parent, which is an interesting place to be, and I am at a special conference called ?The Initiative for Pediatric Palliative Care Educational Retreat,? and if you listened to the show with Deborah Dokken we had on on November 30, Deborah talked a little bit about this palliative care initiative and about what they?re trying to do down here is in the initiative, they?re trying to get, and they do have it here, they have 125 people here at a retreat center, The Crossings, outside of Austin, and we have physicians here.? We have nurses.? We have registered therapists.? We have inhalation therapists.? We have all sorts of medical people down here and along with them we have social workers.? And along with these hospital-based people, they have asked bereaved parents to be part of the process.
H:?Okay, and what is the purpose of the conference?
G:?The purpose of the conference is to train people to work as a team and the idea is to level hierarchies so that everybody?s working for the same purpose for the patient and working with the family.? And the family, the idea is that they?re part of the system of making decisions.
H:?Um hm.? I love it.? So it?s training the medical community and professionals that work with people that are grieving and are dying.? It?s to train them on how best to do that.
G:?And how to have the family as part of their team.? The family is actually part of the team.
H:?I like that.? So they incorporate the family in decision-making and in the team process.? That?s great.
G:?So we talk about different issues during the day and we talk about, for instance, we?re going to be talking about the experience of professional caregivers in pediatric care and they?re including families of those as part of that.
H:?Well, I love it, mom.? This is so great because who knows better than a family that?s been down that road.? Bereaved families and grieving families and families that have sick children are the experts in what works and what doesn?t work as far as in the medical community.
G:?We?re going to be talking a little bit more about this on the show today because our guest, Eric Hipple who is quarterback for the Detroit Lions, as you know with shows, he has not shown up with us on the show and we?re concerned that he may have the wrong phone number, wrong time, or whatever, so I hope you?ll all forgive us if you hear Heidi and I as being the mainstay of the show today, right, Heidi?
H:?Yes, as my mom just said, our guest has not yet called in and, you know, Eric was the quarterback for the Detroit Lions for almost ten years so maybe he?s just a very calm person and he will end up calling in at the last second we?re hoping.
G:?But if he doesn?t, we promise you we?ll have him on again because we know he?s going to be a wonderful guest.?
H:?Right, it?s going to be an amazing show.
G:?So hang in with us today and give us a call if you get a chance because Heidi and I are just going to be here doing our thing maybe.
H:?Yes, that?s a good idea, mom.? We?d love to have call-ins today.? You can ask us anything you?d like, and just feel free to call in.? That would be a great show, actually, if people would call in.
G:?Absolutely.? Our number again is 1-866-472-5792.? You can call us with any questions or thoughts or comments.? We would love to get them today, and it would make it very interesting for us.? So we?re going to go.? I wanted to talk a little bit, Heidi, before we go back and maybe talk a little more about the conference or some of the exciting things that you?ve been doing.? Oh, I wanted to also say before it slips my mind, I wanted everyone to know that a woman named Jan Wheeler who has the ?Project Joy and Hope? for Texas and has done, in honor of her daughter Valerie, she is paying all of our room and board down here?all the parents.
H:?Oh, my gosh, that?s amazing.?
G:?Isn?t that wonderful.
H:?That?s fabulous.
G:?And you can go on the internet to her www.joyandhope.org and one of the reasons you might want to go on there is because they give sibling scholarships.
H:?What do you mean?
G:?Scholarships to bereaved siblings
H:?Oh, that?s great.
G:?for college
H:?That?s wonderful.
G:?through this organization in honor of their daughter, Valerie.
H:?And can anyone apply for the scholarship?
G:?I?m not exactly sure if you have to be from Texas or not, but I think it would be worth going ? she told me they gave $100,000 away last year and I don?t think it?s probably just Texas.?
H:?Right.
G:?So anyway, she?s paying for our room and board down here which we really appreciate that.
H:?That?s fantastic.? Now what if I was a parent that really wanted to go to a conference and give my feedback and my advice to the medical profession about what was helpful for me and what I think needs change in the system?? How would I go to one of these conferences?? Can anybody go to a conference?
G:?You would get in touch with Deborah Dokken, who was on our show, and Deborah was on, and you could email us about Deborah Dokken.? She was on the show on the 30th so you could listen there.? Deborah may even give her email on that show or when we?re on break, I?ll look it up for you and that?s who you?d get a hold of if you wanted to, and I think it?s a great idea.? The next one?s going to be in Monterey, California, at the end of next month, and so it?s going to start on the 27th of February, so if you want to go to Monterey, California, to a hotel down there and be part of this, you might want to get in touch with Deborah, and I?ll give you her email.
H:?Well, and like we?ve learned, mom, from so many of our guests, oftentimes one of the ways to heal ourselves is to become active in our grief process and this is such an important way to be active and to do something positive and productive and turn our grief outward.? Oftentimes people aren?t ready for this but for those of you that are ready, this is a great way to kind of give back and to educate people so that they can learn from what?s worked for you and what hasn?t.?
G:?Absolutely, and it?s a wonderful, caring environment.? We just had a panel of five parents and it was really very moving and we had 125 professionals listening very closely to what everyone was saying and able to ask questions about how parents felt and what they could do better.
H:?Wonderful.
G:?So it is a great really nice opportunity.? Well, before we go on a break, we?ve got a few minutes, I want to talk a little bit about an email we got.
H:?Okay.
G:?We got an email from Canada, which we love to get ?em from out of the United States, right, Heidi?
H:?Absolutely.
G:?It?s just the Internet is so fabulous going all over the world.? Our email came from Claudia, and Claudia was talking about ? well, she actually ? it?s on our blog now.? She actually sent it to the blog, so you can read it on our blog, www.thegriefblog.com.? She talked about her son, Matthew.? He was a twin and he died of something called vasa previa, and vasa previa apparently is where the blood vessels are outside of the umbilical cord and they got kind of squashed during birth and her little boy, Matthew, didn?t make it through, and she talks about some of the ways that they can use a color Doppler ultrasound to actually see if this could possibly happen to you.? So she?s involved with.? She has a website, www.ourangelmatthew.com, you might want to go to.? And also she talks about the International Vasa Previa Foundation.? And again, Heidi, we love it when our parents become pro-active like this, don?t we?
H:?Yes, and become experts on the diseases that their children died from so that they can help prevent other kids from dying this way which is what she?s doing it sounds like.
G:?Yup, exactly, and she?s trying to get information out there to parents who may have this problem so it doesn?t happen to them.? Well, that is Claudia, thank you for that email.? It?s great.? And wonderful things are happening on our blog.? We have people coming in and writing poetry.?? It?s been very big.? And we love to get the poetry.? There?s nothing like poetry to make a beautiful statement or to bring us into more understanding in a way that we can hear.
H:?Right, absolutely.
G:?Then we?ve got our recipes.? You can give your child?s favorite recipe.? I put my son?s ? my husband and son used to make chocolate chip cookies, so
H:?Oh, you put that recipe on?
G:?Yeah.
H:?I love it.? I love that recipe.
G:?So that?s on there and, yeah, so a lot of things going on on the blog and comments, and we hope you?ll make your comments, and also, after a show, they put a place down at the bottom where you can put your comments about the show, too, which is a great thing.?
H:?Mm hm.? Yes, we appreciate your feeback.
G:?Yup, we do.? So Heidi when we come back from break, I wanted you to talk a little bit about some of the things that are going on with you with siblings and with some of the grief and loss things that are going on in the New York City area.
H:?Very good.? Okay.
G:?Good.? And I have a feeling we?re not going to hear from Eric today, so we want to apologize to our audience and hope all is well with Eric.
H:?Yes, that?s my main concern, that everything is fine with him.
G:?Absolutely.? And, as I said, we can have him on another day.? Well, it?s time for a break now.
H:?Welcome back to Healing the Grieving Heart.? I?m your co-host, Dr. Heidi, with my mom and host, Dr. Gloria.? For those of you just joining our show today, our topic was going to originally be Real Men Do Cry, and our guest was supposed to be Eric Hipple.? Eric was the quarterback of the Detroit Lions from 1980 to 1989.? Unfortunately, he is not joining us today.? He has not called in yet and we?re not sure where he is right now, but we definitely will do the show in the future, right, mom?
G:?Absolutely.? I think he?s going to be a great guest and we?re looking forward to doing the show and we?ll do it in the future.? I am down in Austin, Texas, right now at the Initiative for Pediatric Palliative Care Educational Retreat, and that?s a big bunch of words, but it?s 125 healthcare professionals that are trying to make the healthcare system more humane and the way they?re trying to do it is also by having bereaved parents and I?ve been invited down as a bereaved parent.? And I wanted to talk a little bit about being a bereaved parent, Heid, is that okay?
H:?I think that?s wonderful.? Go for it, mom.
G:?Okay.? I wanted to tell you first what happened in my life because there was a panel today where a woman came on and talked a pretty much similar scenario to mine and there are some things that I learned from listening to her that I thought were ? that I wanted to ? see I saw some changes that needed to be made in the system.? In 1983, my son, Scott, and his cousin were driving home from going to dinner and a movie in Washington, DC, and they?d been to a mall and they were heading home from the movie.? It was a huge rainstorm, and they were driving, and we?ll never know what happened, but they ? Matthew was driving the car, Scott?s cousin, and he was only going the speed limit they believe because there were people who were behind him and apparently he skidded and hit a bridge abutment, the Dolly Madison Chain Bridge if people are from the Washington, DC, area, and the car blew up and.? Well, the car didn?t blow up right then.?
H:?The car hydroplaned, right?
G:?Yeah, the car hydroplaned.? Heidi knows as much as I do because she?s read the report, but the car hydroplaned, hit the bridge abutment, and a couple of guys were behind them.? They were actually actors.? They were in Showboat in the Washington, DC, area and they got out of the car and went up to the car and looked in and they could see the boys hunched over.? They both had safety belts on, and before they could open the car door, the car blew up and the kids burned to death.? So, now, one of the things.? And I could go on with the story about ? it?s hideous as you all know out there.? Anybody that this has happened to.? It?s incredible and how I found out about it was I was at my cousin?s house.? We were staying overnight and the telephone rang and I got up.? My cousin actually got up and answered the phone and said oh, no, no, no.? I said, here, give me the phone, and I said, what is it?? It was her husband and he said two policemen were at his house.? She was separated, actually, and two policemen were at his house and they had had the identification from two boys.? And I said are they both dead?? And he said, yes.
H:?Horrible, I mean, there?s no easy way to find out your child?s been killed.
G:?No, terrible, terrible. It?s such a shock and then you fall on the floor and scream and yell and all that kind of thing that ? unbelievable.? But then the police came over to the house and, you know, I really.? Those two officers, you can imagine two bereaved mothers, so those two officers came to the house, and I remember just wanting to be held and they did hold my hand, but what a thing for them.? And I would have now, listening to this woman today, I wish I?d had the opportunity to go to the accident site at that time, you know, and see.? I said I wanted to see the body, and the policeman said no, you don?t want to see the body.
H:?So he was protecting you; but in hindsight, you would have been, you really needed to do that.
G:?Yeah.? The thing was, I was a psychiatric nurse and consultant to the surgical service at the University of Rochester at the time so I was a real professional in the field and I had worked with a lot of death and dying and been through a lot of that and although it was much worse than I had ever thought anything could be that you could even live through, the thing was, I wanted to do that.? I?d seen death.? I was a nurse.
H:?But mom even when you?ve seen death, it?s your son.
G:?Yeah, but I still wanted to do it.
H:?Right, and I think that?s important regardless of your profession.? If you really want to see a body and you really want to see the site, then this is your opportunity to do it and your decision should be respected.
G:?Right, instead of someone saying no, no, you can?t do that.
H:?Right.
G:?And then, the next day of all things, I was in Washington, DC, and all of my cousin?s friends ? Heidi, my husband, and my 14-year-old daughter were out visiting Heidi and Rebecca in Utah and I went down to Washington, DC.? It was over Easter break, and I was sitting there and all my cousin?s friends were flooding the house and she was showing the picture of her son, Matthew, and all that
H:?So they were grieving for Matthew.
G:?They all knew him, and I am sitting there thinking, I?ve got to leave.? I?ve got to get out of here.
H:?Because your support system wasn?t there.
G:?Right.
H:?That must have felt really lonely.? I mean, here you are where your son?s died but everybody?s grieving the death of Matthew.? They didn?t know Scott.
G:?Yeah, it was terrible, and I just couldn?t take it any more, and I suddenly said, I?ve got to leave, and so I said, I?m leaving, and people are like, oh, you?re leaving?? And I said, yeah, I am.? So I packed my car and these people drove me out of town.? I was driving from Washington to Rochester, New York, which was about 350 miles and so the thing I learned later which really ? I found really ? I was really very mad about it is they ? I was supposed to go past the accident site to go up.? They drove me all the way around so I wouldn?t see the accident site.
H:?Because the accident was only a couple of miles from Aunt Belle?s house.
G:?Yeah, and I didn?t have the presence of mind to go to the accident site.? I would have loved to ? wouldn?t you have loved to have seen the accident site?
H:?Absolutely, and I did see it but it was awhile ? it was later.
G:?Yeah, and remember you found buttons
H:?We found buttons from his Levis which it was important to me to find them and hold them and realize that they had been on his pants but, yes, I think.? And it just brings back so many times when we have guests on when they say you know one of the things that helped us the most in the hospital is that the nurses had the wherewithal to ask me if I wanted to hold my child and to allow me time with my child to grieve the loss of my child who had died.? Because sometimes like you said, you weren’t able to make those decisions.? It would have been nice if someone had come in and asked you, do you want to see the site?? We?ll drive you there.
G:?Which is exactly the point that I found out today.? I heard ? today we were talking about parents whose kids died in the hospital and getting support later on and how they got support later but it wasn?t long enough and I hear this woman up there whose son was killed immediately like Scott was only she even went to the scene and they wouldn?t let her near the body for an hour and a half.? So that was very traumatic for her.? But I just thought, you know what, paramedics.? There should be people that go out after paramedics.
H:?Like support staff?
G:?Yeah, for families.? All of us.? Everybody who has sudden death and never makes it to the hospital is not getting any support.
H:?Right, right, at a crucial time.
G:?Yeah, why wasn?t there ongoing support?? Why didn?t the paramedics ? I?m not saying they should do it, but why wasn?t there somebody who rides out with them or comes out later or follows up with the family?? There?s nothing.
H:?Right.? Right.
G:?The families are left on their own completely.
H:?At the worst time in their lives.? The worst possible moment to be alone.
G:?And those key moments when, seeing, going and doing what you want to do, being respected maybe would help some of the grieving process.
H:?Right, yes.
G:?And other regrets.? I?m sure a lot of folks out there know what I?m talking about.? Things that they would have done.
H:?Well, I?ve gone to funerals, several funerals, in fact, where women, especially women, mothers, have been sitting there and family members have said don?t look at the casket.? Even though it?s an open coffin, an open casket.? Don?t look.? It would be too hard and they?ve kept them away from those things and later a few women have said, I regretted not seeing that.? I am angry that people kept me away.
G:?Yes.? I even was involved at a conference once where a woman was actually carrying a picture of her son at the mortuary because her husband had seen him but didn?t want her to see him.
H:?Right, so sometimes people are doing things that they think are helpful but actually it?s not helpful, because you?re being too overprotective.
G:?But it would have been.? As I said, I wanted the police to be there for me and, of course, they?re not going to stay for an hour and follow up.
H:?They?ve also got boundaries and if you?re hugging them, you know.? They have their own training that they?ve had.
G:?Hopefully they?ve had it.? I think it must be very shocking for some of them that have and what a thing to have to do.
H:?I agree.? I can?t imagine anything worse than telling someone you?ve never met that their child has died or their sibling has died.? Horrihble.
G:?And we were fortunate later on, we had the finances to go back to Washington, DC, to have somebody from the police department pick us up, take us to the accident site, take us to see the car, and to do all those things that really make you realize that it really happened and, you know, there?s such a denial at first, isn?t there?
H:?Absolutely.? I completely understand when people say, especially some of the 9/11 families I see, they say well, I thought for a year or two that he was actually alive and was walking around the city with amnesia.? I understand that because when Scott died, I really believed in my heart of hearts that Scott and Matthew had been kidnapped and somebody else was in that car.? It was not them.? They had been kidnapped because there?s no way 17-year-old boys in the prime of their lives, healthy, happy, physically fit, die suddenly.? It just doesn?t happen.
G:?Absolutely, and you go through that yearning and searching stage that I?m sure everyone knows about.? I had a stiff neck from looking, seeing people with blond hair and thinking that might be them.
H:?I still occasionally see Scott, and it?s very bizarre because I know rationally that that?s impossible.? Sometimes I?ll run up and it?s not him and I?m like, I can?t believe it?s still this many years later, I occasionally think I see him.
G:?Right.? Well, we?re coming up for break now and I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley, with my co-host, Heidi Horsley, and please stay tuned to hear more about Heidi and I.? Beyond our control, our guest wasn?t able to make it today so we?re going to talk a little bit more about Scott?s loss.? We?ve never had the opportunity to do that on the show, and we hope you?ll stay tuned for more.? And if you?d like to call in, our toll-free number is 1-866-472-5792.? You can also reach us on www.thegriefblog.com.
When we were going to break, we were talking about Scott?s death and how his cousin was driving, Matthew, and how they hit a wall and the car ended up blowing up and they burned to death and we went from my ? that was in Washington, DC, and this was 23 years ago, Heid?
H:?Yes.
G:?And people say to me, I?m at a national conference in Austin, Texas, right now, and I?m with some bereaved parents because we?re ? it?s bereaved parents being part of the healthcare team.? It?s very interesting talking to the newly-bereaved parents because a very newly bereaved parent said to me today, you never get over it, right?? And I said, oh, you never forget and the memories become sweet.? And she said, oh, that?s what I want to hear.? I don?t want to hear you never get over it.
H:?Well, I?m always saying this.? I think that you can?t get over something like this, but you learn to live with it.? You learn to go on.? You learn to have a lot of positive life experiences and you learn to be in a very different place than the place you?re in now.? If someone had told me that the pain that I was in initially would never end, I would not want to go on living.
G:?Absolutely.? It is just so excruciatingly painful, isn?t it?
H:?Absolutely.? The grief is always on some level, you always miss that person and like you said mom, even 23 years, but the pain is gone, the pain is no longer there.? You occasionally will get waves of pain but you will rebound from those waves very quickly after 23 years.
G:?Absolutely, and there could be a smell or a sound or a sight or something that will trigger you.
H:?Or an event in your life.? I miss Scott terribly but it?s not the first thing I think about when I wake up in the morning.? It?s not the last thing I think about before I go to bed.? I?m not crying all day long and that?s what was happening for me, and you, mom, initially.?
G:?Do you want to talk a little bit?? I was saying where I was and I drove back to Rochester, New York, and could you talk about where you were and then I want to talk about our experience at the funeral home and with the loss.
H:?Okay, and then how we moved on from there.? Let?s see, I was at the University of Utah.? I was a student there and I got a call.? Somebody came to our door.? It was a distant relative.? It was a relative of my father?s who I actually didn?t know very well.? My father knew him very well, but
G:?I had called him from the east.
H:?You had called him.? He came to the house so my father was with me and my two sisters and they knocked on the door and told us that there had been a horrible accident and we asked what had happened.? They eased us into the fact that he had died.? They didn?t just blurt it out which I found a better way to do it.? There?s no good way but they ended up telling us in the third sentence that he had been killed and died and that Matthew had died as well and we all cried and screamed and I remember he had a son with him who was probably in his twenties and, like you said, mom, all I wanted to do was be held, and I threw my arms around this 20-year-old who didn?t even know me and was hysterical, and he was very stiff.? I will never forget that.? He was rigid and he did not want me.? He couldn?t handle it.? And that really upset me because I was in such a vulnerable place.? So it was a bad night.? All the physical things, not just emotional, but the physical things you go through when you find this out, was really what we went through.
G:?It?s such an adrenalin hit.? It?s like hitting a brick wall straight on.
H:?And you?re sick, too.? I was sick physically.? I threw up.? All those ? you?re shaking, you?re in shock.? And we got in the car.? It was a really bad snowstorm that night, and we were driving to the airport and we were.? I was terrified we were all going to die in the car because here we?d had the death of Scott and we knew that people die suddenly before their time, so now who was going to be next?? And we got to the airport and we flew back to Rochester, New York, which is where I grew up and it was a very long flight, and I remember we had.? Oh, no, that was another time, that Charlie McCarthy doll.? We had my brother?s Charlie McCarthy doll at one point and we brought it in the airplane because we had two funerals.? We had a double funeral for the boys together and we put him in a seat and we buckled him in.? We were actually laughing.? It was actually a good thing.
G:?That?s the black humor or the rough humor that you have when you have a close family member die.? Humor kind of helps you survive.?
H:?Right, and unfortunately when you?re around other people that have gone through a loss, they understand that, but outsiders don?t understand that.? They can?t figure out how you can laugh, and laughing is an emotion and it?s a way of releasing some of the tension and anxiety and stressful feeling after a death so that?s how I found out.? It totally turned my life upside down.? I dropped out of school.? I could not function.? I could not read.? I couldn?t even read a novel let alone school work.
G:?And you?re a big reader.
H:?I love reading.? I love reading novels, I mean, I just devour novels, yeah.? So for me at that point, I needed to take a six-month break.? I had to.? And I did and I think I?ve said before, I had a public speaking thing that I had to do for a class two weeks after Scott died and I told the teacher I couldn?t do it.? She said well, why?? Your brother?s been dead for two weeks.? You should be over it by now.?
G:?Right, of course,
H:?I was completely blown away by that statement.? It was interesting at 20 how quickly your friends think you should be over it.? Twenty year olds do not want you to be grieving.? They want you to be happy and fun and carefree and all those things so they wanted me to get back to the normal me who I was before Scott?s death, and I ended up getting back to a positive place but I would never be that same person.
G:?What did you need, for the folks out there, as a 20-year-old, what did you need from the world?
H:?I needed the world to acknowledge and validate how hard it is to have a brother die, and to really get it.? To understand my pain.? And I felt like the world did not understand how much pain I was in.
G:?And they ask you about your parents, right?
H:?Right.? They ask me.? And my parents were in amazing amounts of pain which is very hard for me to see.? I had never seen my parents that vulnerable ever in my entire life.? I?ll never forget when my mother.? Mom, your two siblings, your two sisters came to the house, and you guys huddled together and cried in a hug in a huddle, and I looked over and I said, wow, siblings are amazing.? It made me miss my brother even more but I looked at that sibling bond, and it was very hard for me to see my mom so vulnerable and just, even if your parents aren?t telling you they?re vulnerable, the look in their eyes.? You see it.? You see it by just looking at them.
G:?And so parents are worried about their kids, but your kids are worried about you.
H:?Kids are worried about you and that?s why oftentimes we don?t show our grief because we feel like you?ve been through enough and we don?t want to cause you any more pain, and if we grieve in front of you, it?s gonna.? It?s gonna.? We feel like it might hurt you.? It might cause you more pain because you are grieving yourselves.
G:?Could you talk a little bit about seeing the body?
H:?Seeing the body for me was very important, and I felt like I needed that kind of proof and some people don?t have bodies.? You can only do what you can do so that?s not an option, but we did have the option.? Scott was burned on how much of his body, mom?? 90?
G:?Like 99%.
H:?99% so they mummied him and put him in his baseball uniform and his right foot was exposed and it looked normal which was amazing to me.? But seeing that foot was so important and hugging him and holding him and touching the foot.? It?s amazing how important that was for me and I think for the family.? I just speak for the whole family.
G:?Now for our folks out there who didn?t have that opportunity or didn?t want to or did what they thought they should do, one of the things I think we?re finding out, Heidi, is that it doesn?t make any difference down the road.
H:?Right.? People initially say well, it?s easier if you have a body and initially that might be true, but down the road, mourning is mourning and people aren?t that, grief is grief.? I still didn?t have Scott.
G:?Yeah, so I?d say to you folks out there, if you wished you?d seen the body and you didn?t or there was something that you?d wished you?d done, if you think that you might be grieving better or somebody might tell you it.? Not necessarily so, right, Heidi?
H:?Right.? I think for me, the thing that it did for me is that I didn?t believe.? I was in denial.? I didn?t believe that he had died and so it just made the reality happen a little quicker.? You?ll eventually get there anyway.?
G:?Right, exactly.
H:?But it?s not like.? I really.? I know he?s dead now.
G:?I think it gives you kind of a kick start when you see him.? That denial place, it kind of shocks you a little.
H:?Exactly, and you?re like, oh my gosh, it is him.? This really did happen.? This isn?t a bad dream.
G:?Exactly.? So one of the things I want to say to you folks out there with Heidi and me and with the rest of the family, I did worry tremendously about Heidi.? Heidi dropped out of school.? We were concerned about her.? We were concerned about all the kids.? What was going to happen to them?? We didn?t feel like particularly good parents and I don?t think we were particularly good parents, do you, Heidi?? Or do you have any thought on that?
H:?I guess in hindsight now that I?m older, I feel like you guys did the best that you could do and I think parents are too hard on themselves because they often think I?m not being a good parent.? I should be there 100% for my children, but you?ve had the death of your child.? So I think you did the best that you could at the time.? I know that doesn?t help, but parents are always saying to me, what could I do for my child?? I?m in so much pain.? What would be helpful?? And I always, if I could give you only one piece of advice as parents, just one piece of advice, I would say, and I?ve said it on the show before, go to your children and say, look, I know what it?s like to lose a child, and I know how hard and horrible it is to lose a child, but I have no idea what it?s like to lose a sibling, and I just wanted to let you know that if there?s anything I can do, that I?m here, because I don?t know what it?s like, and it must be really hard for you.? It must be horrible.? This was your sibling.? This is someone you were supposed to grow old with.? This was someone that was supposed to be in your life forever and they?re no longer here.
G:?And what great words.? We?ll leave and go to break on those words because I think that?s really important.? This is our final break.?
When we went to break, we were talking a little bit about Scott?s death.? His cousin, Matthew, was driving.? They hit a retaining wall and the car blew up and we were talking about my journey, how I found out, how you found out, and then we were talking about dealing with the body, and we had a couple of funerals, and, I don?t know, some of the things that come up for me are how families grieve differently, husband and wife, and the kids, the siblings, how they are the forgotten mourners, right, Heidi?
H:?Absolutely.? They are the ones that are forgotten and that are unacknowledged.? In fact, there is going to be something at NYU School of Social Work in a couple of weeks.? Somebody there has done a study called ?The Forgotten Ones: The Grief Experience of Adult Siblings of World Trade Center Victims,? and you know I?m going to be there in the first row because that is our biggest complaint, I think.? Sometimes we don?t voice it.? We don?t even think we have the right to voice it.? We don?t feel acknowledged in our loss.
G:?You know I?m down at this Pediatric Palliative Care Educational Retreat in Austin, Texas, right now, and we, the parents got together.? There are 19 bereaved parents who got together because we?re working with the health care staff as being part of the community trying to educate health care workers and about our loss and also how to help them to learn how to help families, and one of the things David Browning said, are there any thoughts here among you parents, and I raised my hand and I said, I would be remiss for my daughter, Heidi, if I didn?t say there are no siblings here.
H:?Mm hm.? So the siblings were un ? they were not there.
G:?Yeah, there were no siblings there.? Although this is a family thing and it could include siblings, of course, and I think that siblings are the forgotten mourners at the hospitals.
H:?Well, that?s another thing.? If you?ve got a child that?s sick, all the time and energy is going toward that child and oftentimes the children that are well feel like, what about me?? Nobody?s looking at me.? Nobody?s giving me gifts.? Nobody?s talking about me.? It?s always about my sick sibling.
G:?And also sometimes they?re not allowed to go to the hospital when the kids are in critical care.
H:?And even when they?re not in critical care, certain hours, children are not allowed in the hospital.? And I agree with you on certain wards, and it?s hard because you want to include the siblings in this, and the sick sibling wants to see their sibling.
G:?Absolutely, and the other person who I think gets pushed out a bit are the husbands because it is a female community with all the nurses, mainly are nurses, and eventually if you?ve got a kid in intensive care or whatever, it seems like we end up with a lot more women there on a regular basis.? The men are at work and whatever, but it becomes sort of an unfriendly environment for them, too, and it leads into that idea that sometimes men?s grief is not acknowledged.
H:?Or they need to be strong.? People assume they?re going to be the strong ones and they expect that out of them.? And so if we had Eric on today, he would address real men do cry.
G:?Absolutely, and one of the other things that happens is, and I saw it on the panel today, one of the men was talking about it, is that they can also be the ones that stand up to the doctors and get mad, and you know, that?s not a fun place to be where you?re the one who has to
H:?You have to be the heavy.
G:?Yeah, you have to be the heavy.
H:?Yeah.
G:?So men sometimes ? and then they get put in that position so that?s difficult.? Well, Heidi, talk about some of the things that you?ve gone on to do since Scott?s death because one of the things I want to say and I said it earlier is we do worry about our kids as parents.? Will they get over it?? Will they move on?? Will this ruin their whole life?
H:?Right, and I think one of the things I want to tell parents is this event, this death of my brother and my cousin defined my life, but it did not destroy my life.? It has defined my life.? It has changed my life.? It has changed who I am and not all in a bad way.? I feel like I?m a more mature person.? I?m more empathic.? I appreciate life more.? I appreciate my family more because I know what it?s like to have a brother who died and lose my brother so it will define your children?s lives.? It no way destroys your children?s lives.? Your children are more resilient than you will ever know and they will rebound and they will go on to have a positive life despite this horrific horrible event that has happened in their lives.
G:?Absolutely, so you?ve got to have some trust and faith there.? And they may go through some bad patches.? You know, my younger daughter went through some very rough years and it was rough for us.
H:?Right.? Grief goes in waves.? I mean, we definitely have times that are good and times that are bad.
G:?Absolutely, and the thing is you have a big black hole and you throw everything into the grief hole.? Everything?s because they?re grieving.? Well, teenagers go through situations and 20 year olds.? They have bad and good times whether they?ve had a sibling die or not or whether you?ve had a child die or not.
H:?Exactly, mom, and looking at you where you are, you?re in such a different place than you were originally, and it?s a similar process.? I mean, you were in such a grieving difficult space initially.
G:?Absolutely, and I left the University and went back to school because I was working with bereaved, I mean, families on a surgical service, and to get out of it in a way that I could do it gracefully, I ended up going back to school, and so they?re different.? So I am a different person.? As we all say, there?s a life before and after, but it?s great.? What an opportunity to do this show, right, Heidi?
H:?This show is so amazing and our guests just inspire me every day, they truly do, because I realize if they can get through what they?ve gotten through, I can get through anything that life will throw at me because life is going to throw you hurdles over and over.? No one gets through this world easily.? It?s not possible.? So, yeah, they inspire me.? Like you said, our lives are like two books.? I mean, they?ve got a couple of chapters.? My life is the chapter before Scott?s death and the chapter after and underneath, there?s a lot of different segments to that.
G:?Absolutely, so we give you all our love and courage to go on and tell you that we love doing the show for you and we appreciate you as our listeners.? So, Heidi, it?s time to close the show today and I want to thank you for being on with me.
H:?Thanks, mom.? This is great.? This is very amazing.? It was good for us to be able to tell our story, too, because it?s healing.? It heals me every time I tell it.
G:?Absolutely, and Heidi had said earlier, we really ought to do a show to hear our story, and I thought, what a great idea.? So serendipitously, it has happened.? It?s been a wonderful opportunity.? This show is archived.? Oh, I want to tell you about next week?s show, Heidi.? We?re going to have a really great show.? The woman who is going to be on is Valerie Sobel and Valerie founded the Andre Sobel River for Life Foundation in honor of her son Andre, and they have done wonderful things in raising money, and Valerie?s idea is that parents, mothers, and dads should be able to stay in the home with their dying children, and so helping them financially to do that.? This show is archived on our blog, www.thegriefblog.com, as well as www.thecompassionatefriends.org website.? This is Dr. Gloria Horsley and we want you to stay tuned next Thursday at 9:00 Pacific Standard, 12:00 Eastern for more of Healing the Grieving Heart, a show of hope and renewal and support.? Remember, others have been there before you and made it, and you can, too.? You need not walk alone.? Thanks for listening.? I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley, and
H:?I?m, Dr. Heidi Horsley.? Mom, Scott and Matthew are gone but never forgotten.? They live on in our hearts and memories and in all the work that we do together.? Thanks, mom.
G:?Thanks, Heidi.

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