HEALING THE GRIEVING HEART
Coming to Terms with Loss
Hosts:? Dr. Gloria Horsley and Dr. Heidi Horsley
With guest:? Donna Schuurman
October 26, 2006
G:?Hello, I?m Dr. Gloria Horsley, with my co-host,
H;?Dr. Heidi Horsley.?
G:?Each week, we welcome you to Healing the Grieving Heart, a show of hope and renewal for those who have suffered the loss of a child, a sibling or a grandchild or just friends, and as always the message is others have been there before you and made it and you do not walk alone.? If you?re listening to our Thursday live Internet show, please join Heidi and me on our show by calling our toll-free number, 1-866-472-5792, with questions or comments regarding the losses in your life.? These shows are archived on our website, www.healingthegrievingheart.org and www.thecompassionatefriends.org website.? They can also be downloaded through Itunes and we are on selected radio stations.? You can go to our website, www.healingthegrievingheart.org to find out what those stations are.? We also welcome you to our website to see our quote of the week and if you also click on Scott?s site, you can leave a candle for your child.? We love to get those candles, don?t we, Heidi?
H:?Yes, it?s wonderful.? Thank you.
G:?And have your children?s names on there.? We also have a site that you can hit which is our blog and we?re coming up with a new blog called the grief blog that will be a lot easier to use we?re hoping and that will be in the next two or three days so you can go to the site and we?re hoping that you?ll be able to log in, tell your stories, ask us questions, and we?ll have, basically, wouldn?t you say, Heidi, a virtual community?
H:?Absolutely, and give us feedback on the shows, maybe shows you?d like to see in the future, that kind of information.
G:?Absolutely, and I?ve been blogging in on the shows so before we get our other blog going, you can go to our website and hit that blog and you can read some of the comments or things people have said.? We had an interesting blog.? Actually, I had an email and put it on the blog about a person who was having re-occurring nightmares.? The son has only been dead about ten weeks and the dad?s having re-occurring nightmares, so I comment about that on the blog and one of the things I say to you all is it?s not unusual for this to happen, wouldn?t you say, Heidi?
H:?Absolutely.? He was having re-occurring nightmares about how his son had died?
G:?Actually he was seeing him in the coffin every time he closed his eyes or whatever.
H:?I had horrible nightmares after Scott died and I would wake up screaming and it really scared my roommates more than it scared me but what I kept envisioning over and over and over was the car that he was riding in and the fire that engulfed the car and so I kept re-working it over and over and over.? You re-work a lot through your unconsciousness in your dreams.? I think we work these experiences.? They?re almost too painful to work through when we?re awake.
G:?Absolutely, and I suggested that one of the things you can do is to consciously write them down or talk about them as much as you can maybe in a grief group or Compassionate Friends group or whatever and then you don?t have to process it quite as much at night.
H:?Absolutely, and eventually they will lessen over time.? Now the only dreams I have of Scott are good ones.?
G:?Right.
H:?Which is wonderful.
G:?So hang in there and things do get better.? Well, Heidi, would you like to introduce our guest today?
H:?Sure, I?d love to.? Our guest today is Dr. Donna L. Schuurman and our topic is Coming to Terms with Loss.? Dr. Donna Schuurman is National Director of The Dougy Center for Grieving Children & Families, where she has served in various roles since 1986.? She has written and trained internationally on children?s bereavement issues, and is the author of Never the Same: Coming to Terms with the Death of a Parent.? Dr. Schuurman served as President of the Board of Directors for the Association for Death Education & Counseling, and in 2003 received their Annual Service Award.? She is a member of the International Work Group on Death and Dying and serves as a Director on the boards of the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, and The National Alliance for Grieving Children.? She is the bereaved sibling of Lynne.? Welcome to the show, Donna.
D:?Thank you.? It?s a pleasure.
G:?Hi, Donna, welcome to the show.? This is kind of an unusual loss because you never really knew Lynne, right?
D:?Correct.
G:?Could you tell our audience a little about her?
D:?Yes, actually, Lynne was my parents? first child.? They were 19 and 20 years old and it was over 55 years ago so things were handled a little differently then, but Lynne died at four days old, and I was just having a conversation, in fact, with my mother who said one of the things that?s so difficult for her is, among many, that she never got to go to the funeral.? They actually held the funeral for Lynne without telling my mother and came to the hospital and told her so she didn?t have that kind of marker, if you will.
G:?Was she able to hold her?
D:?Yes, but I think perhaps one of the most significant parts of the story is that after she was told that Lynne had died, she and my father never spoke about it and she never spoke about it with anyone until I asked her about it forty-five years later.
G:?Oh, my goodness.
H:?Wow, that?s amazing.? So almost as if Lynne had never existed and the reality is, too, when we?re pregnant, we start forming bonds with our children.
D:?Exactly.
H:?Although Lynne was four days old, to the world, to your mother, she was actually nine months and four days old.
D:?Yes, and so much hope and first child and all the anticipation and then to have this crushing loss and be 19 years old and alone and unsupported by family and society.
G:?Now as a sibling, how do you think it affected you?
D:?Well, it took me a long time to realize this.
G:?Now did you know about her and how did the family deal with that with you?
D:?I knew that she had died.? I knew, but every June, which was when she died, my mother would get kind of down and my father would say to me and my two old brothers, ?You know, it?s probably about that baby, and just kind of leave her alone and it?ll go away.?? So we never talked about it as a family.
G:?Which wasn?t unusual during that era.?
D:?No, it wasn?t.
G:?It was like let?s protect the person who had the baby but I think in the reality, let?s protect ourselves because it?s too painful to see them suffer.
D:?Exactly, instead of let?s reach out and support them.? And I think there was also a little bit of shame at that time associated with the loss of a child as if you had done something wrong, but I realized after I finally discussed it with my mother and she had the opportunity to really tell her story for the first time holding it in for 45 years how much I was affected by the death of someone I never knew because my mother was affected.?
H:?Absolutely, and your parents parented you differently because they had a child die.? They were different parents to you, and I don?t know in what way, but they did do things differently most likely than they would have.
D:?Yes, their next two children were two boys and I was the final child and a girl and in an unusual way, it?s almost as if I might not have been born if Lynne had lived.? I mean, who knows how all these things go, but my family was very happy to have me and yet there was always the child who died and I didn?t have a sister.? I didn?t get to have a sister.
G:?So as a sibling, you thought about her?
D:?Well, I did, yes.? I thought, oh, I had two older brothers.? They were kind of big rough-housers.? I was the youngest and the only girl and there were times in my young growing up life I thought oh, if I had a sister, she would protect me from my big bad brothers or we could do fun things together.
G:?So there were never any pictures of her for you to look at.
D:?No, no.? In fact, again, my mother and I were just talking about she doesn?t recall ever getting a birth certificate and I said, you know, I don?t think they probably issued birth certificates for infants.? They issued death certificates but not birth certificates and there?s still some states in the United States that don?t issue birth certificates if the infant dies stillborn or in the hospital.
H:?And it?s interesting how this death ? what you?re doing today may have impacted the life choices you?ve made as far as career.
D:?I think so, and I think not as consciously as I might have thought.? I think a lot of it was more unconscious, subconscious, beneath the surface, but it certainly put a lot of pieces of a puzzle together.
H:?You also see first hand how parents grieve, how your mother grieved.? What happens when things aren?t talked about and have first-hand knowledge growing up with that.
D:?Absolutely, and the fact that it doesn?t go away.? The loss of a child, the loss of someone important in your life changes in time and certainly many people get through it and all of that but it?s not ever as if it didn?t happen.
H:?Well, I was just thinking, Donna, when you were saying yes and I grieved the loss of a sister I never had, I was thinking, and the loss of a sister you could have had as an adult today because I love having sisters and I don?t have a brother any more, and I grieve that loss still, so you know as adults we still have such a strong sibling bond.
G:?Now, Donna, I wanted to ask you, what would you suggest to our audience out there if they have had a child die after a few days or weeks or whatever, what would you suggest to them for their ? maybe if they don?t have any other children ? for children coming later on, would you have a suggestion for them?
D:?Well, I think it?s important and helpful for many people to have a photograph.? I would love to have a photograph.? I would love to have booties or a little armband and to say we were a family of six, not five.? And how many children do you have?? Well, I have three living and one who died as opposed to sort of non-existence because it changed all of our lives.
G:?And would you suggest that people out there talk to their other children about it even though they?re young?? Do you have suggestions about that?
D:?Absolutely.? Absolutely.? And just to not make these things be secrets.? Secrets have negative power.
G:?Well, secrets are amazing because oftentimes everybody knows them.
D:?Exactly.?
G:?Everybody knows the secret but nobody talks about it.
D:?Exactly.
G:?Sometimes when things are open, we think we?ve told other people and we haven?t and those are more secrets almost than secrets.? They don?t travel as fast.
D:?And particularly with children.? I work with a lot of children who have had different kinds of deaths and their parents will say, well, they don?t really know the whole story, and then they?ll come in and tell the whole story but they?ll say, oh, don?t tell my mom.? She thinks it was this or that.? So they already know.
G:?Right.? Very perceptive.
D:?And they?re also learning if we don?t tell them the truth that adults are not to be trusted.
H:?And they?ll also fill in information that they don?t have with their own information and oftentimes it?s misinformation.? It?s the wrong information.
D:?Yes, and that kind of lack of ? if you?re always wondering but never able to really know, then it keeps it active in a way that if you know what happened, you can process that in a different way than the not knowing.
G:?Now have you been surprised by anything you?ve heard about Lynne now that you?ve been talking to your mother about it?
D:?One of things, I?m not sure if it?s, I guess it did surprise me.? I was talking with her recently because friends of mine had twin daughters who died at about two weeks old and I got to hold them and they invited their friends to the hospital and they have a two-year-old son also, and we got to hold these little baby girls.? And I thought how different it was for my mother to be alone instead of having this kind of support.? And I was telling my mother over the phone and she said to me, ?Even though it was 57 years ago, 58 years ago, I can still see her little fingers and toes and her little lips as if it was today.?? Those memories are ?
G:?never fading.
D:?Yeah, that parts of them just are part of who we are.
G:?Well, we?re coming up on break now and I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley, and please stay tuned to hear more about Coming to Terms with Loss with our guest, Donna Schuurman.? Please join our show by calling our toll-free number, 1-866-472-5792, and you can email us through our website, www.healingthegrievingheart.org.? Stay tuned for more.
Well, Donna, I?ve got to say, we are so honored to have you on this show because the Dougy Center is so incredibly fabulous.? Could you tell people a little something about the Dougy Center?
D:?Yes.? Next year will be our 25th anniversary.? We started in actually the basement of a pediatrician and his wife, who was a nurse, who wanted to help children that they were seeing medically who were dealing with illnesses and deaths of siblings and parents and nobody seemed to really know what to do for them and how to help them.? So for the last 25 years, we?ve been working with children starting at age three up through young adults and their parents, teenagers to do support groups to help normalize the experience of grief.
G:?And where are you located?
D:?We?re in Portland, Oregon, but we helped to start about 160 programs.? They?re all independent.? They?re all named different things, but throughout the United States and into other countries.
G:?You?re kind of the gold standard for bereavement centers and helping start one.? Tell people how they can get in touch with you.
D:?Well, you can look on our website which is www.dougy.org and there is actually a listing there of programs throughout the country so if you?re listening from somewhere other than Portland, Oregon, you can look at that site, www.dougy.org for whether there are programs in your area as well as, of course, Compassionate Friends chapters all over the country.
G:?Right, and we?ll have Donna?s book on our website, Never the Same: Coming to Terms with the Death of a Parent, and how do you get that book, Donna?
D:?Well, you can get it through our website at www.dougy.org, www.amazon.com, Borders.? It?s carried through all of those places.
G:?Great.? When we went to break, we were talking about your sister, Lynne?s death and about how your friend just lost twins and that you were able to hold them in the hospital and I was asking during break did that bring back thoughts about your sister?
D:?It definitely did for me, but I would say even more deeply, I think, it gave me a kind of visceral appreciation of what my mother must have gone through at age 19 to not have the kind of support.? When my friend?s twin daughters died, they were born seemingly healthy and it turned out that they had a disease that is always fatal and they looked perfect but they died and we got to hold them and they invited their friends and we held them and we cried and told stories and the support that they received from us as well as what it meant to us was amazing.
G:?Now what would you say to our audience out there who didn?t have that kind of support?
D:?Well, I think it?s a lot more difficult to grieve alone.? There?s a place at which we do grieve alone but that you don?t walk alone and that feeling understood and finding others who can support you in that really life-long journey can be so helpful.
G:?And so you suggest that they reach out maybe to the Dougy Center, Compassionate Friends, or some of these other organizations.
D:?Yes.? There are a lot of hospital programs that just help people understand what are some of the normal healthy responses to grief that people don?t know.
H:?I keep thinking of your mom today.? She?s so in my head because my heart goes out to her and I want to say that I?m so sorry that she had the death of Lynne and I?m sorry that you did as well, lost your sibling, but to be isolated alone like you said, Donna, you don?t know what?s normative and what?s not.? You don?t know if what you?re going through is a normal reaction because you?re out there alone.
D:?Exactly, and I was just reading a little book that was talking about how in diagnostics in the medical community if you have experienced more than two months certain kinds of symptoms after a death then it?s considered almost a medical condition, and I?m saying, wait a minute, nobody feels better after two months.
H:?Oh, Donna, you?ve got to read the article I just wrote.? I wrote it for Death Studies.? It?s coming out in November and it?s called ?Continuing Bonds Following the Death of a Sibling? and we address that in the article saying that, according to the DSM, after two months, you are diagnosed as having major depression after a loss and that?s just crazy.
D:?It?s sick.? It?s wrong and it?s kind of that negative medical model that we can fix this and grief is not something that needs to be fixed.?
G:?Let me just say to our audience, the DSM that Heidi is talking about is the categories of loss and it?s very insurance based also about how therapists get insurance and we?re just saying that two months isn?t enough time to be getting a diagnosis of major depression.
D:?I don?t know anybody who experiences the loss of someone significant in their life that doesn?t experience depression.
G:?Right.
D:?It?s normal.
G:?And don?t let people label you.
D:?Yeah.
G:?However, we do have to look at their past history, right?
D: ?Yes, and if that becomes debilitating or life threatening certainly there are courses that may need to be taken but if certain amounts of sadness, depression, sleep, eating kinds of changes are normal responses.
G:?And even feeling like that you wish you weren?t living on the earth but the difference is that you don?t really want to take your life and if the person walked in the room, you would be happy again.
D:?Yes, exactly.
G:?Well, Donna, I also wanted to ask you about male and female loss because you were talking about how your dad said that baby and didn?t talk about it and we?ve talked sometimes about how men handle grief differently or we certainly don?t want to categorize the whole thing, but do you see at the Dougy Center are there more women that come in and is it difficult for men to come in or don?t you see that?
D:?Well, I like to look at it more as sort of masculine and feminine because there are some women who would rather sort of act out their grief by doing things rather than talking and feeling and crying but we see more women but one of the reasons we see more women is that more men die than women in every age group so the families we see are children who have had a father die, a mother die, a sibling die, and so father deaths are more prevalent and that?s why we?re going to see more mothers.? However, I think it?s more socially acceptable in our culture for women to seek help than it is for men so that?s also a part of it.
H:?What about with teenagers?? I would think, like Gloria said, that you?d see girls more than boys and boys would be less likely to want to come in and talk about their feelings and what?s going on.
D:?Actually we don?t find that.
H:?Oh, that?s good.
D:?Our population is pretty much 50/50, 49/51 boys and girls and although the teenagers might be more difficult to get in for the first time, once they see that it?s oh, I get to be with other teens and talk about our mutual experiences, they don?t want to leave.
H:?Exactly.? That?s so good for me to hear because I work with teens and the thing that I hear the most from parents and I know the parents out there that are listening will resonate with this is I cannot get my teen to open up.? I can?t get them to communicate with me about how they?re feeling and I don?t know what to do.
D:?Yeah, but the thing is, I say, well, were they communicating before the loss?? Before the death?
G:?This is such a good discussion, Donna and Heidi.? We need to go to break now.? When we come back, let?s revisit teens and also how if there?s somebody out there who wants to get their spouse into a program.? Let?s talk about suggestions that we have.?
I just want to remind people that this show is archived on our website, www.healingthegrievingheart.org as well as www.thecompassionatefriends.org website so you can download them seven days a week, twenty-four hours a day.? Well, when we went to break Donna and Heidi, we were talking about teens and for those in the audience out there, how can they get their teens to go to treatment with them, or help or I don?t know if you want to call it treatment, or get together with people who can talk with them, and also how do you get teens to talk?
D:?Well, I think one of the most important things to remember about teens is that at that age, their peer group is so critical to them so I understand why teens don?t want to go in and talk to a therapist.? Although I?m a big advocate of therapy, I think a lot of teens believe it means that you think something?s wrong with them and they?re grieving.? Grief is not a mental illness.? So I think there are unfortunately a lot of associations there that aren?t really warranted but again sort of the stereotype which is why I think that peer groups for teens can be one of the most effective ways to get them to talk and not just talk but to do whatever they need to do in terms of expressing through art, through throwing things, through all kinds of different mediums what they?re going through but I think that happens best with other teens just because of the importance of their peer group at that age.
H:?And feeling like I?m not alone because oftentimes when teens have a death, if they?ve lost a sibling or a parent, they might not know anybody else that has been through that at school and they might feel really different.
D:?They do feel very different.? In fact, when they come to us at the Dougy Center, they?ll often say to the other teens, ?Wow, you all look normal.?? And they think that they look totally different.? That people are looking at them differently so when they see the other kids, they?re like, ?Wow, you?re normal.?? And not only that, they also get to laugh together and tell stories.
G:?They can probably also talk about how they were mad at the sibling and they don?t think it?s fair what?s happened.
D:?Yeah.? Or mad at their parents or wishing that it had been them or feeling guilty that it was their sibling who died and not them.
H:?And having all those things normalized and having other siblings say, ?Yes, I felt the same way.? I felt like maybe the wrong child died.?? That was definitely my own personal experience when my only brother died and my parents now have three daughters.? I mean feeling like why hadn?t it been me and hearing other siblings say, ?Yeah, I felt the same way.?? It?s so reaffirming and so normalizing which I love.
D:?Yes, and then also to have somebody be able to say, ?I used to feel that, too, but then I realized X, Y, Z.?? As opposed to just having an adult tell you which too often happens, ?Well, you shouldn?t feel that way.?
G:?Okay, so I?m the parent sitting out there right now and I?m listening to us talking about this and I can?t get my son or daughter to go with me to go to anything.? What do I do?
D:?Well, what we do is to say ? tell them that you want them to come to the Dougy Center once for them.? ?I want you to come for me.? It?s just for me.? This is a favor.? And I assure that if you don?t want to go back, I won?t make you.? But I want you to come once for me.?
G;?And you could do that with your spouse also I assume.
D:?Yes.
G:?Because the reality is, they are going for you.? If you?re saying let?s go and they don?t want to go, they are going for you.
D:?Yes, and then say, ?And if you don?t want to go back, I won?t make you,? and stand by it.? But for the teens, particularly, once they see, oh, it?s other teens.? It?s not people preaching at me and telling me to get over it and how to act and how not to act.? It?s people who really care and listen and want to understand.? I want to come back.? And the vast majority do.
H:?Donna, I want to shift gears for a minute here because you talk in your book about resiliency and I do not think that?s addressed enough in the grief and loss literature.? And you talk about three protective factors and what went right.? And I wanted you to say a little more about that for people who are listening.
D:?Well, I think we ask the question or should ask the question, what helps people, in this particular discussion, what helps children bounce back from very difficult circumstances?? What helps them bounce back not to who they were before, but bounce back to being healthy, young people, and into healthy adulthood from the death of a sibling for example.? And one of the resiliency factors is just what kind of basic personality do they have?? Some kids are just more resilient than others.? They?re more social.? They just happen to be that way.? There?s not a lot we can do about that.? But a second resiliency factor is the support of the extended family.? How are they helped by their family and community?? Do they have a sense of belonging and a sense of being understood?? I think that?s an incredibly key question and I ask people frequently who are grieving, do you feel that there?s anyone who understands what you?re going through?? And the people who can say ?yes? are faring better physically emotionally than those who say ?No, no one could ever understand.?
G:?So that?s a good question for you to ask yourselves out there, audience.? If you?re newly bereaved, is there someone ? what is the question again, Donna?
D:?Do you feel that there?s anyone who understands what you?re going through?
G:?And if your answer is ?no,? we recommend that you find somebody wouldn?t you say?
H:?Or a support group.
D:?Absolutely.
G:?It may be a minister.? You may decide you want to do therapy.? Maybe a support group.? Wherever you can find it, you need to find somebody.? Give us the question again, Donna.
D:??Do you feel that there?s anyone who understands what you?re going through??? Now, of course, no one can fully understand what someone else is going through, but if you answer that question by saying, ?No.? I?m alone.? No one could ever understand that I have no one to talk to.?? That?s not a good position to be in, and I would agree with you.? If you?re answering ?no,? I strongly suggest that you find a support group, a therapist, a close friend, someone you can share with.
G:?And that?s an important thing.? We?re coming up on break again, and I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley.
G:?I just wanted to mention for people who have just tuned in, we?ve been talking with Donna about the death of her sister, Lynne, and the reason I bring that up, Lynne actually died before Donna was born and at the end of this segment, this is our last segment, Donna is going to read a poem for Claire that she wrote for her sister.? Getting back to the show, in the last segment we were talking about therapy and teens and helping teens get help and you were saying that you were a real advocate for therapy and I wanted to explore that about finding a therapist.? Do you have any thoughts about that?
D:?Yes.? First I want to say, I don?t think that all grieving people need therapy but it can be helpful for some people.? However, a lot of therapists did not receive a lot of training in grief and loss particularly death.? Ironically, it?s very odd to me because I think what drives most people to therapy is loss-related issues, but the Association for Death, Education, and Counseling, called ADEC, has a listing of people who are certified in thanatology, the study of death, but I encourage people to call hospitals and hospices and ask for referrals for people who really have understanding and experience in grief and loss and to shop around a little bit because there?s also such a thing as fit.
H:?Yeah, I think that?s a really good point.? Sometimes people think if you go to somebody, that?s who you have to stay with and if you feel like it?s not a good fit and you don?t feel comfortable, you need to find someone you feel comfortable with that understands what you?re going through.
D:?Absolutely.
G:?Yeah, and even though a friend of yours may have a wonderful therapist that they really like, I would suggest that you make sure that it?s somebody who understands the field of grief and loss.
D:?Unfortunately, a lot of our families come to the Dougy Center with very difficult and painful stories and experiences they?ve had with therapists who didn?t understand, who just tell them, you need to get over this.? You need to stop thinking about it.? And that?s not how grievers should be dealt with.
G:?Now, Donna, moving on a bit, do you have any comments or thoughts for our audience out there?? First, I want to give them the website of the Dougy Center again and any other resources that you wanted to give out.
D:?The website is www.dougy.org.? It will have a listing of other centers throughout the country that are based on the Dougy Center?s model.? It also has some resources for people who work with children who are grieving in a school setting for parents or children specifically so there are a lot of resources on that website.
G:?And I would highly recommend that you get Donna Schuurman?s book, Never the Same: Coming to Terms with the Death of a Parent.? Very good book on that topic.? So do you have any special advice for people out there or thoughts that you want to close our show with and then we?re going to have you read the poem that you wrote for your sister.?
D:?Okay, I think the most important thought that I can give is to trust your own experience and to find others who will listen and support you and not try to fix you or tell you what to do.? I think that being understood and feeling felt by others is such a critical issue in our healing.?
G:?Absolutely, and telling your story.? You just can?t tell your story enough, can you?
D:?Well, I think it?s telling your story to people who will listen.? That?s the other important part.
G:?Absolutely.
H:?And who won?t interrupt your grief and won?t interrupt the process.
D:?Who value it enough to let it be your story.
G:?And it also helps you to contain your story at times too because there?s some places that you may not want to have it come out so you do have a chance to tell it.
D:?With people who are safe and people who care and really listen and unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there who don?t want to listen.
G:?Or can?t listen.? They aren?t able to hear it.? Well, would you read A Poem for Claire, part of your poem that you wrote, and tell us first about writing it.
D:?Well, I wrote it after I got off the phone with my mother several years ago when we had our first conversation about what happened and it was 45 years later after the death of her daughter, my sister, Lynne, and I wrote this poem really for my mother in memory of Lynne and it says:
You never got to be a book
You were barely a preface
The novel of your life was a very short story
Those four brief days in June
Forty-five years ago
You burst into the world
Born of pain in pain
Shrouded in secrecy
Nine months of hope
A blink and you were gone
My sister.
How strange the sound of a word I never got to say
And yet I got to stay
In some strange way
Your spirit reaches out to me across these years
And urges me to live.
G:?Ah, that?s wonderful, well, thank you, Donna.
H:?That was beautiful.
G:?Thanks so much for being on the show and best wishes to your mom.
H:?Thanks, Donna.
D:?Thank you.? It?s been a pleasure.
G:?It?s time to close our show, and please stay tuned again next week when our guest will be Bill Hancock.? Bill Hancock wrote a book, Riding with the Blue Moth.? He is Director of the NCAA Final Four men?s basketball tournament and his son died in 2001 in a plane crash that took the lives of the members of the Oklahoma State basketball team.? Bill?s book, Riding with the Blue Moth, chronicles his 2,747-mile bicycle journey following Will?s death.? Join to hear his wisdom obtained from this heartfelt journey.? This show is archived on our website, www.healingthegrievingheart.org as well as www.thecompassionatefriends.org website.? This is Dr. Gloria Horsley and
H:?Dr. Heidi Horsley.? Lynne, although you only lived on this earth for four brief days, you will never be forgotten.

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