HEALING THE GRIEVING HEART
Pregnancy Loss and Death of a Child in Early Infancy
Host: Dr. Gloria Horsley
With guest: Susan Hawkes
September 1, 2005

G: Hello. I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley. Welcome to Healing the Grieving Heart, the show that reminds you that there are no simple or quick solutions to dealing with the loss of a child. The topic of our show today is Pregnancy Loss and Death of a Child in Early Infancy. From the moment we discover we?ve conceived, the hopes and dreams and plans for that child begin to form in our minds and our hearts. We plan, we scheme, we worry, and we dream of what a new life growing inside us or our partner will bring. Some of us are crushed with disappointment early on with an ectopic pregnancy or a miscarriage, while others must deal with a stillbirth or an early infant death. When this happens, the nest is empty. Our dreams crushed. Some of us disenfranchise ourselves with the belief that we don?t have the right to grieve our loss. We hear society measuring our loss by saying they were young, she could have died, or it was a miscarriage. Those who have lost children in pregnancies want you to know that each of your losses are unique. They are not to be compared or measured. Your loss is your own and your journey of recovery is on your own time. We are here today to support you on that journey, to say we have made it and so can you. Somehow we must and will go on. Have faith, trust, and the belief that you will again find meaning, love and joy in your life. The heart will heal. It?s a matter of letting it happen. Healing the Grieving Heart is about nourishing the heart and removing the blocks that slow the miracle of renewal. You can love, open your heart again, and be happy. Please join us on this show, Pregnancy Loss and Death of a Child in Early Infancy, by calling our toll-free number 1-866-369-3742 with questions or comments regarding the losses in your life, or you can email me at gchorsley@aol.com. Well, today, I am very honored to have as my special guest Susan Hawkes, registered nurse, bereavement specialist who deals with parents who have suffered miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy, stillbirth, and early infant death. Susan is a bereaved parent of Nicholas, a twin who died of congenital heart disease. Susan has also had multiple pregnancy losses. She comes to us from Los Angeles, California. Welcome, Susan.
S: Thank you, Gloria, it?s a pleasure to be here.
G: It?s great to have you on Healing the Grieving Heart. Could you share with our audience the story of some of your losses.
S: Sure. About nine years ago, we were expecting twins, our fourth and fifth children, and we were thoroughly excited and anticipating these little babies coming into our lives, and although they were a little early — they were born at 36 weeks — we were all home and doing well within a couple of days of their delivery. They were seen several times during the first two weeks just because they were a little small, and at the two-week well-baby check up, Nicholas, one of our babies, presented with a heart murmur. We found ourselves the next day at a cardiologist?s office and the following day at the neonatal intensive care unit where they had determined that Nicholas had a very complex congenital heart defect that was going to require surgery. We were then sent to Children?s Hospital in Los Angeles and he underwent surgery when he was 22 days old and everything seemed to have gone fine. We were sent home late that night. We needed to come home to our older children and our little twin, Ryan, who is our survivor. We got the phone call at about 1:00 in the morning saying that Nicholas had taken a turn for the worst and they were asking us to get there as soon as possible. By the time we had gotten there, he had had a massive heart attack and they had attempted CPR but they were not able to revive him and so we lost him at 23 days and we had the complex task of coming home and telling our children.
G: How old were your other children at that time?
S: At that time, they were 12, 8, 4, and our newborn, Ryan. So that was probably the hardest thing I?ve ever had to do was to tell those little kids who had had him home for two weeks that he was not going to be coming home with us. And then in addition, with a twin, you have this complex task of trying to maintain your happiness about this new little life that you have yet you have just left a baby who may have identically looked like this little baby in the hospital and you are going to bury him, and so Ryan?s infancy was interesting, to say the least.
G: Now, were you breastfeeding at the time?
S: I was.
G: I would imagine that would be really tough.
S: I had been breastfeeding every 2 to 3 hours for 2 weeks, two babies. As we talked to our pediatrician in the following weeks, just at regular well-baby check ups for Ryan, I asked them, ?What do you find that people who successfully cope with a loss of a child do?? because we were just beside ourselves. She said, ?Hands down, the people who cope the best are the people who attend support groups or get really quality grief counseling.? So I attended three different support groups, just one time each, and two of them were really pretty bad experiences.
G: Now how far out were you at this time?
S: Oh, let?s see, maybe four or five months before I actually attended a support group. But having a surviving baby, people just assumed that I had everything that I wanted. You have a baby. But they didn?t realize that we?d lost just the same thing they did. It was just that we had a surviving twin and so sometimes it?s a little isolating to have that surviving multiple if you?ve lost one of them because it?s the same thing when people say, ?Well, you have surviving children. This must not be as bad for you.?
G: Plus he was young, right?
S: Yes, he was very young.
G: So they feel that way, too.
S: People do the ?at leasts? when you have lost an infant or a baby during pregnancy. At least you didn?t bring him home, or at least he wasn?t alive, or at least you didn?t bond. Which none of those things are true, and if you start with the words ?at least,? you?re minimizing someone?s loss and that should never be your starting point when you?re trying to console somebody. So basically with the loss of Nicholas, we waited a few years before we decided whether or not we were going to try again. To make a long story short, we did attempt to have another baby and in 18 months, we lost five more babies.
G: Oh, my goodness, you had 5 miscarriages.
S: I had 4 miscarriages, one was a set of twins. We made it quite far along, 18 weeks, 14 weeks, 12 and 12 weeks. And so surviving three first trimesters and then to suddenly be told that I really should not try again because it was affecting my health. I ended up being diagnosed with antiphospholipid body syndrome, which is an immunological problem that causes micro-clots so they would get lodged in the placentas and then the babies wouldn?t have nourishment and would just die. It?s a very under-diagnosed problem and the problem with pregnancy loss is most insurance companies and doctors won?t even treat women until they?ve had at least three consecutive losses, which makes it very difficult.
G: Now, how did the other children deal with Nicholas?s death?
S: I think our 4 year old did the very best. He was the one who was cheering us up most of the time. He would say, ?You know, I know Nicholas is happy where he is.? And he was our little shining star. I think the 12-year-old and 8-year-old really had a hard time. They?re girls and they were helping me feed these little boys around the clock and so it was very difficult for them. I think the 12-year-old probably had the worst time of it. She was kind of like a second mother to these little twins for two weeks and it was just devastating on them. I think we all had some depression and just really had a rough time.
G: And then how did your husband deal with this?
S: We dealt so differently. I remember actually just getting very angry at him and accusing him of not grieving at one point because he was trying to be stoic and he was trying to fix things which in my reading I realized that?s a very male reaction to having lost a child or a baby, but he became kind of the stoic one. Even though he was a little more inward in his grief, I know he grieved, and I think that he?s used the death of Nicholas just to become a really compassionate person. He reaches out to people in many ways that I think maybe he may not have learned to do this had this not happened.
G: Now, you went to two groups, and then you went to The Compassionate Friends.
S: Then I went to Compassionate Friends and I received a great deal of validation from those leaders and they had a wonderful library and that?s another coping mechanism that I used. I almost compulsively read everything I could about the loss of a baby or grief in general and that was so very validating to talk to other people and to read things that other people had written knowing that what I was feeling was normal and what I was experiencing were normal thoughts and normal reactions. It was very validating and encouraging to know that people actually lived through this, were able to come and lead a group or write a book or do something productive in their lives, because initially I would wake up and think why is the sun shining? And why is the world continuing when I feel like this?
G: And now, you?re a nurse, right? Were you a nurse then?
S: I was not. I was due three weeks after I was to have graduated in a registered nurse program, and so Nicholas died the night I was to have graduated because he was born a little early. I ended up having to go back and make up my final exams and two clinical days four months after he died but I did eventually get it done and I?m now a registered nurse. I work primarily in labor and delivery and cross-train to the NICU and because of my experiences, I take great care in caring for the moms that come into us with losses. We have a wonderful training program that we go through that helps us know how to properly care for women and families who are losing a baby in a hospital.
G: We are going to come up on break in a moment and we?ll have more with Susan Hawkes. You?re listening to Healing the Grieving Heart, and I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley. Susan is registered nurse, a bereavement counselor who specializes in helping parents who deal with miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy — which is one thing I want to talk about, Susan, and tell our audience for those who don?t know what that is — stillbirth, and early infant death. If you?d like to join our show with comments for me or Susan, please call 1-866-369-3742.
Welcome back to Healing the Grieving Heart. Our topic today is Pregnancy Loss and Death of a Child in Early Infancy. I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley, and my guest today is Susan Hawkes, registered nurse and bereavement specialist who deals with parents who have suffered miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy, stillbirth, and early infant death. Susan is a bereaved parent of Nicholas, a twin, who died of congenital heart disease at 22 days old. Is that right, Susan?
S: 23.
G: She?s also had multiple pregnancy losses. Susan comes to us from Los Angeles, California. Susan, as I said before break, I wanted to let our listening audience know, for those who don?t know, what an ectopic pregnancy is.
S: Certainly. An ectopic pregnancy is one where the ovum or developing embryo implants outside of the uterus and it?s usually in the fallopian tubes. So you have all of the pregnancy symptoms, but your baby is growing where it shouldn?t be and so as it starts to grow, it starts to cause you pain and it can rupture the tube or wherever it?s growing, and you eventually have to have the developing baby removed. And so it?s sometimes considered an unsupported loss.
G: It can be very painful and quite dangerous.
S: Very painful. Women can die of this. They can bleed to death. Then you?re kind of left with an early pregnancy loss, but people often don?t understand that the baby had to be removed to save your life. It?s very complex.
G: Let me read you an email that I received regarding this topic. Mary from Spokane, Washington, writes to me.
Dear Dr. Horsley:
I saw you were going to deal with ectopic pregnancy on your show and I wanted to thank you for including this with the loss of a child. I am 40 and not married. I was shocked and surprised to find out last year that I was pregnant. At first, I was not happy, and then I adjusted to the idea and was frankly thrilled. I even started telling people. A few days later, I started having pain and was rushed to the hospital where I had surgery to end the pregnancy. My friends thought it was no big deal, but I feel sad and confused. I would appreciate your thoughts.
I wanted to thank Mary for emailing us on this important issue. Do you have any thoughts about that, Susan?
S: Yes. You know sometimes when you have a loss that?s a little ambiguous, you?re feeling am I happy I?m pregnant, am I not, and often we do that as we find that we?re pregnant. It makes things very complex once we have lost that baby that we were happy about. In addition, if you have friends that are not supportive, it?s very isolating to have a loss with an ectopic pregnancy because they?re having to remove the baby. That can also produce some guilt, but it?s something that has to be done to save your life.
G: And there can be confusion and there are also issues about whether you can get pregnant again.
S: Exactly. Oftentimes you lose that fallopian tube where the baby implanted.
G: And with Mary being 40, I?m sure that?s a big concern for her.
S: Yes. In the support group that we have, it seems like we have an extraordinary amount of women who have infertility issues on top of loss.
G: Is this support group at the hospital?
S: It?s actually The Compassionate Friends. Eventually, down the road, we developed a subgroup to our local Compassionate Friends chapter that is specific for people who have had pregnancy and infant losses just because some of our issues are different. We meet in an adjacent room. Some chapters throughout the country do have this luxury of having two separate groups and we have gotten so large that we now have just established a second site and meeting time in the Los Angeles Basin because so many people are traveling a good two hours to attend our meetings because there?s really nothing like it that?s specific for people who have had losses similar to ours.
G: And that?s great and really the only thing that it takes for a group like that to start is a person who is willing to do it.
S: Absolutely. The Compassionate Friends chapters are set up already all over the country and all it takes is approaching the leadership and saying, ?This is my situation, what would you thing about allowing me to have a subgroup and we would meet in the same room on a different night.? And that?s what I did. I approached our local leadership and said, ?This is what I?d like to do.? They were very gracious and have just wholeheartedly welcomed us into the chapter and it?s been a really great experience. In fact, the people who have attended our group over the last four years almost hands down say the things that have helped the most are talking to other people who have had similar losses.
G: Could you talk just a little bit about these people who are trying to get pregnant now with in vitro?
S: In vitro, often people have tried for years and years and years to do other things because in vitro is invasive and it costs many thousands of dollars each time you do it and it?s often not covered by insurance.
G: It costs like $20,000.
S: Oh, it?s huge, and so people have their life savings placed on this one procedure that hopefully will result in a baby and then many times they?re implanting several embryos in hopes that one will actually take and many multiple birth pregnancies are a result of this. With multiple birth pregnancies, there?s inherent risk. Statistics I?ve read are three to fifteen times greater risk of having a loss if you have a multiple birth. So there are so many people who have lost twins, triplets, just because our bodies don?t really do well with that many babies often growing at the same time. So I have just a multitude of people who come in who have lost multiples because of in vitro pregnancies and it?s just devastating. Most of these women are in their late 30s, early 40s, and they?ve been trying for years to have a family and this was their only chance, and it?s just very sad.
G: So I think, Susan, what we want to tell our audience here is you have the right to grieve.
S: Absolutely. Absolutely. Oftentimes, I think in the past women were told forget that happened. You?re young. You can have another baby. And it just doesn?t work well that way. If you don?t really acknowledge that this was a loss, it just comes back to haunt you. This is from the training that I went through which is pretty much the gold standard that people can go through in order to learn how to help people who are losing children in a hospital setting. They said that with early losses, about 75% of people consider it the loss of a child, but about 25% consider an early pregnancy loss just part of life and they?re able to just move on and not really let it make much of an impact on their lives. And that?s another complicating issue. If you?ve got some people who are able to just say, well, this is life, this happens frequently, and move on, it makes it very difficult for those people who really feel it very strongly. The 2005 fact sheet from The Compassionate Friends actually states that there are 900,000 early pregnancy losses a year in this country alone and so it?s a huge amount of people who are suffering through this.
G: And people have the right to grieve it or not to grieve it. There can also be an expectation that we should all be really grieving a miscarriage but maybe some people don?t and they don?t need to.
S: Right, and if there?s one thing I?ve learned in the last 9 years is you?ve got to allow people to grieve the way that they feel that is most beneficial to themselves.
G: I also wanted to ask you, it comes up here, I know some people want to see their ? would you call them products of conception if it?s very early?
S: Yes. And that?s perfectly legitimate. In my opinion, if you can see things, if you can hold your baby, you?ve got this tangible evidence that this really happened because you?re in denial anyway. If you can actually have some mementos from the hospital, little pictures, ultrasound pictures, anything that you can actually tangibly hold that can sink in the reality of the situation to you, I think you?re much better off because you can then move on and really work through your grief rather than just deny that this actually happened.
G: You can actually see anything that the hospital removed, correct?
S: Exactly, you can. You can request to see anything the hospital removed.
G: But I think you would have to request it, particularly if it were early.
S: Yes, you would have to request it before they performed the procedures.
G: I wanted to talk a little about stillbirth. Let?s start with stillbirth and I want to talk about SIDS a little later on, probably after break, because I think that?s got some special issues with it. But how about stillbirth?
S: It?s estimated that about 27,000 stillbirths occur in this country alone each year.
G: Can you tell our audience what a stillbirth is?
S: It?s a baby who is born between 20 weeks and term, 40 weeks, who is not born breathing, who is not born alive, and so basically, the baby has died inside of the mother and then they discover this and she has to deliver a baby who is not alive.
G: She can know for awhile.
S: Absolutely. She can know for quite awhile. Sometimes they?ll have a woman wait and have the natural process take over or you?ll be induced and have to deliver a baby knowing that your baby is going to be born dead. There are some women who have conceived multiples and they will find out at some point that one baby is dead and they have to continue the pregnancy in hopes of saving the survivor.
G: Now, how do you handle that with the stillbirths? Do you give the baby to the mother on the delivery table, is the dad there, how is that handled?
S: We give the mother the choice because some women absolutely do not want to even see the baby. Most women want to see, hold. Some of them will help us bathe the baby, dress the baby. I think the women who become active and actually embrace the experience do so much better. I?ve never heard anyone regret that they held and saw their baby, but I?ve heard many people say, ?I so regret that I wasn?t made aware that I have the right to see and hold my baby and take pictures.?
G: However, for those folks who are listening to us right now, if you did not hold your baby, if you did not see your baby, again, we have to remember that we do the best with what we can at the time, and you need to forgive yourself because the hospital or whatever the circumstances were that it wasn?t a possibility. That?s what you have. We?re coming up on break again, now, please stay tuned for more of Healing the Grieving Heart. Our topic today is Pregnancy Loss and the Death of a Child in Early Infancy. I?m Dr. Gloria, and my guest today is Susan Hawkes, registered nurse, bereaved parent, and bereavement counselor to couples who have miscarried, had ectopic pregnancy, stillbirth, or early infant death. I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley, please stay tuned.
Welcome back to Healing the Grieving Heart. I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley. Our topic today is Pregnancy Loss and Death of a Child in Early Infancy. My guest today is Susan Hawkes, registered nurse and bereavement specialist who deals with parents who have suffered miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy, stillbirth, and early infant death. Susan is a bereaved parent of Nicholas, a twin, who died of congenital heart disease at 23 days old. Susan is a bereaved parent of Nicholas and she has also had multiple pregnancy losses. Susan comes to us from Los Angeles, California. Before I get on with our topic with Susan today, I wanted to read part of an email that was sent to me from Kathy from Brownsville, Texas. Kathy writes:
I hear all of your programs and really enjoy them. They help me so much. In response to your show on a son killed by terrorists with Ceil Buonocore, Kathy wanted to say that she found the American Consulate helpful when her daughter, Michelle, was hit and killed by a taxi while crossing the street in Mexico. In her email, Kathy also says, thank you so much for your show. I live in a small town in Texas and there are no Compassionate Friends groups so I listen to all the archived shows.
I wanted to tell Kathy, I?m very sorry to hear about your loss and we?re glad that you?re able to hear our archived shows. I wanted to remind our listening audience that they can listen to all of the shows, this one and past shows, on the Compassionate Friends website. Susan Hawkes is my guest today and we?re talking about Pregnancy Loss and Death of a Child in Early Infancy. Susan, we were talking about stillbirth, and I wanted to talk to you about SIDS death. Could you talk to our audience about what that is, a SIDS death, and some of the issues?
S: Certainly. SIDS is an acronym for Sudden Infant Death Syndrome and it used to be called crib death. Basically, these babies, for some unknown reason, just stop breathing, and they really don?t understand what is causing this. There are many theories, but basically SIDS means that they have ruled out a whole bunch of other things, like a set of creation and what not, and so if they can?t determine what really happened and a baby has just suddenly died and they rule it a SIDS death, it?s not comforting to parents because they really don?t know what happened and it?s the number one cause of death of early infancy. It?s just devastating. It?s a sudden loss. You suddenly find that your baby is in bed and not breathing. It?s thoroughly devastating. It?s also devastating because it?s treated as a crime scene. Sometimes you?re not allowed to see or hold your child as you call the authorities because they have to rule out involvement of problems with family members and it?s just horrifying.
G: And you?re supposed to be interviewed about how it happened.
S: Oh, exactly. First responders are often not trained because they?re looking at it suspiciously as they are trained to do so but it?s very hard on the parents. In addition, they?ve lost their child and they?re under suspicion for awhile.
G: And so they need a lot of support. Now do you have people with SIDS death in your group?
S: We do. We have several that have attended and all of the situations are just devastating but it?s just heart wrenching.
G: One of the things about Compassionate Friends is that you do have people who have had involvement with the police for different reasons and they can also support them in understanding how difficult it is to have to be interviewed and all that kind of thing.
S: And the interesting thing about our group is we?ll talk as a group and then we?ll close and break off and people will stay for an additional hour or so sometimes and they?ll gravitate to the people who have had losses very similar to their own. They will make lunch dates outside of our group and it is just wonderful to see the friendships that have developed because sometimes having lost a baby, you lose friendships. You lose those people that were not supportive or said unkind things but you also gain some friendships and support in the people that you find that have had similar situations.
G: Well, we have a call now from Stacy from California. Stacy, hi, welcome to the show. Did you have a question for me or Susan or a comment?
Stacy: I?m having some computer difficulties this morning so my frustration is that I can?t hear everything that?s going on, actually, but our daughter died eight years ago and she was two years old so although she was a little bit older than some of the infant losses that you?ve been talking about, it?s a similar feeling of not maybe getting as much acknowledgment from the loss.
G: You?re involved with Compassionate Friends, I know.
Stacy: Yes, we are. My husband and I co-lead the group in Woodland Hills, California.
G: Do you have a group for younger kids? You?re not in the same Compassionate Friends group?
Stacy: No, we?re in a different group as Susan. For younger kids, meaning for the siblings?
G: No, for parents who have lost by miscarriages or Susan has a group for people who have had early losses.
Stacy: We do not. We have grandparents that come and some siblings, but we have separate groups.
G: So, thank you for calling in Stacy. Sounds like Stacy is off, now.
S: I know that Stacy and other leaders throughout the Los Angeles Basin are really wonderful to refer people to our group who have lost babies in pregnancy or infancy because they know that we do have that kind of support. We?ve done a good job of canvassing the community to make sure that people know that we?re here throughout the Compassionate Friends organization as well.
G: Do you have any rituals or anything that you recommend to people?
S: Oftentimes when you lose a baby in very early pregnancy, you may not even have the baby cremated. If you?ve had a procedure, it just may not be something that you have a place to go to memorialize your child. You don?t have a gravesite. There are places in various hospitals, for instance, Pomona Valley Hospital in Los Angeles has a memorial wall for babies and children whose parents want their baby?s name etched in a granite memorial. It?s within a little garden and they have a yearly memorial service, and you have a place to go and put flowers. If you don?t actually have a gravesite, and it?s very important, I think, to have little rituals like that where you just take some time to remember your experience.
G: What a lovely way to put it, a way to remember your experience. I was just thinking I know some people like to be a little more active and do something, scholarships and all that kind of thing, and maybe getting your local hospital, working with them on doing a memorial garden or a wall or something would be a wonderful contribution to the community.
S: Absolutely, and there are people in our group who have ? there?s one woman in particular who is a high school teacher and she?s established a scholarship in her high school in the name of her little boy for someone who is going into the medical field in helping children. So there are lots of opportunities that are really healing that people can become involved in to proactively memorialize their child. Also naming your child is very important. Sometimes people will say, ?Oh, don?t waste a name. The baby isn?t alive.? But I think using that name that you had chosen for that baby or if you haven?t chosen one, I think that?s very beneficial.
G: How many miscarriages did you have?
S: I had four and the first little baby we lost, it was at 18 weeks, and we ended up delivering him and we named him ?Andrew.? The other four, I was on such a marathon of needing to have a baby before that next due date was up, I didn?t name those babies until after I got to the point where I decided that we?re not going to do this again. At that point, I had four babies that I didn?t name and at that point I didn?t know if they were boys or girls so I went to a website for ambigendrous names and I chose four names and it was very therapeutic to have just acknowledged that they were little individuals and had they lived, they would have been loved, and they needed a name. So I didn?t do that until later, but I was very glad that I did.
G: Would you like to give us their names? You can give us all of your children?s names.
S: Sure, those ambigendrous names. My living children are Erin, Melissa, Ryan, and Christopher. My babies are Nicholas, Logan, Daryl, Cameron, and Hunter.
G: Ah, thank you so much. We love them all. We?ve got a caller right now, Tom from Massachusetts.
T: Hi, Gloria, this is Tom Alofflin, the Police Chief in Milford, Massachusetts.
G: Oh, great, thanks so much for calling in, Tom. Did you have a thought or question or anything for us?
T: As you know, my involvement is in training police officers, and I know that a number of calls have spoken about the interactions with the police. I guess from my perspective I?m hopeful that people will see changes in dealing with law enforcement officers in years to come.
G: Now, Tom, can you tell us about your loss?
T: My son, Michael, died to SIDS in 1992. He was 3-1/2 months old and he?s my second of three boys. At that time, I became involved with the police training in Massachusetts and now it?s a mandatory course in our police academy. There?s a four-hour session that deals with investigation in child death and how to work with families.
G: Great. I think it?s so wonderful that you?re doing this work, Tom, and it?s really wonderful. Do you write about it, or have a website, or are you able to help other police departments besides yours?
T: We work closely with the Massachusetts SIDS Center but there are promotional materials which have been disseminated by the International Association of Chiefs of Police. People can feel free to contact me at the Milford, Massachusetts, Police Department and I?d be more than happy to point them in the right direction.
G: Do you want to give us a web address or an email?
T: Email is easy. It?s milfordchief@aol.com, and I can send information out to anyone that?s interested in police training around issues of infant and child death.
G: Great. Thank you, Tom. Thanks a lot for calling in, and I really appreciate it. Well, it?s time to go for our final break. My guest today is Susan Hawkes, registered nurse and bereavement specialist, and our topic is Pregnancy Loss and Death of a Child in Early Infancy. Susan, when we come back from break, I?d like to ask you if there?s anything that we haven?t covered that you would like to talk about on the show. Please stay tuned for more from Susan Hawkes.
Welcome back to Healing the Grieving Heart. I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley. My guest today is Susan Hawkes, registered nurse and bereavement specialist. Our topic today is Pregnancy Loss and Death of a Child in Early Infancy. If you?d like to join our show, please call our toll-free number at 1-866-369-3842, or you can email me at gchorsley@aol.com. This show is archived on www.Health.VoiceAmerica.com and on www.thecompassionatefriends.org websites. Susan, when we went to break, I wanted to ask you if there was anything you felt like you wanted to mention that we haven?t covered?
S: Some of the things are that, other than reading and talking to other parents who have had similar experiences, the internet is just a fabulous way to gain support. There are chat rooms, there are different sites that are specific to different kinds of losses?infertility, loss of a multiple?and there are just lots of opportunities to talk to other people if you can?t actually find a support group in your community or create one of your own. There are lots of ways to just try to help yourself in learning about what other people have done that have been successful in coping with this kind of tragedy.
G: What about husbands, or I should say partners, because it doesn?t necessarily have to be a husband?
S: We have many husbands that come to our group and they are so glad to have another partner to talk to because we have such differing issues sometimes of men and women that these dads who come and talk are so glad to talk to other people. In fact, on our Compassionate Friends website, there?s a men?s chat room and people can talk to other men. We sometimes do that in our groups in general. We?ll split into men, women, and men will go to the right, women to the left, and we?ll be able to just be a little bit more open about things that we may not want to share in front of our spouses.
G: One thing nice about the internet particularly that I like about the archived shows of Healing the Grieving Heart is because sometimes you aren?t able to sleep at night and you?re wandering around worried and you can go on the internet.
S: That?s very common, especially in the early part of bereavement, to just really have problems sleeping and I found myself doing that, going to different sites, and there are wonderful poems. There?s actually a site where you can light a virtual candle for your baby, and that?s another way to do something that if you don?t have a gravesite, you can do something. You can post your little baby?s name and picture on a website and have that as some kind of a memorial that can be really a tangible healing thing to do.
G: Great. Well, we?ve got another caller, Steve Parker, from L.A. Hi, Steve. We appreciate you calling in. Did you have a question or thought for Susan or I?
Steve: Yes, I did, actually, I have you on live and you?re a little behind.
G: Oh, yeah, you have to turn it off. It will sound better.
Steve: I was just listening to some of the things that Susan was talking about and I, too, lead a group from Compassionate Friends. Susan and I worked together with my wife, Stacy, on the 2004 conference, and I guess where that all ties together is what you?re talking about now, which is just doing whatever you can for yourself. I think the early infant loss, as a group leader and someone who lost a toddler, I don?t think I really experience some of the things that people that are in Susan?s position, but it does have the common denominator of the loss of a child which, whether they were an infant or a 2-year-old or 20-year-old, you still have this huge loss and the loss of a dream, and going to the point that she was making on finding ways to help yourself. There?s a certain ability that parents who have been in that situation before, helping others. It?s not always the only thing, but it sure does help to talk to someone who has been there in some capacity and also in the memorial type of thing. Some people run to that. For some people, just hearing about what other people are doing can be very healing. Certainly most of the people that we come in contact with are early on in their grief and just don?t know which way to go or what to do or even how to get out of bed.
G: And the idea ? kind of the theme of our show is we?ve been there and you can make it because we have.
Steve: That in and of itself can be very healing but it?s also with the specific group that you?re talking about right now, it is extremely tough and certainly needs a good place and a better focus. I know Susan is working hard on that. Even though we?ve all lost a child, there is some misconception that there?s a different or lesser loss with an infant or miscarriage or stillbirth. The truth is it?s the loss of a dream and whether that dream ended at 2 or 6 or 20 or 40 or 60, we still have future dreams for our children, and it?s equally as devastating and certainly having a special place for that is very important.
G: Now what about a guy thing? I know, as you said, I guess Stacy hasn?t had any miscarriages, but I?m wondering about the woman actually carrying the baby and feeling it in her body and losing it. Do you think that it?s the same impact for the male?
Steve: I would say actually between the loss of our first daughter, Alyssa, who died at 2, and the birth of our next daughter, Gabriel, who is now currently 6 and healthy and wonderful, thank God, we did have a miscarriage. So to answer that question more specifically, as a man in a miscarriage, I believe there?s impact. There was impact for me. I don?t know if it was just because we lost a daughter a year and a half prior. So I don?t know if that had more impact on me as a male, but absolutely. I?ve got to believe that a woman has to have a bigger issue, or the person who is carrying the baby. But I think a lot of it is emotional. If a man becomes emotionally attached to the idea that they?re going to have a baby, you still suffer the death of that dream because the moment you think you?re having a baby, you?re already thinking about what is it going to look like? Will it be a boy or a girl? What college are we going to send it to and where are they going to get married? I think women do that more than men, but I think where am I going to put him in little league? Would he play pop warner football? Would he prefer soccer? Wherever our dreams as a child or as an adult thinking back on our childhood. I think there?s a loss to men, in answer to your question, but I think it?s got to be more significant to the mom because it?s physical.
G: Well, in some ways, maybe she gets the attention, though, if there is any, and the man doesn?t get a whole lot. I would imagine there?s some of that, too.
Steve: I think that as a man in the grieving process, as a group leader, obviously, we see far more women than we do men and a lot of men come kicking and screaming, present company included, to support their wife. It?s very important because society doesn?t allow a macho man to grieve, you know, crying and all that kind of stuff. It?s something that happens and I think that as a man we tend to bury it, but we have a lot of the same feelings. It?s not considered okay, so when you come to a group or when you meet with another man who has been there and understands that you can be walking into a business meeting wanting to fall apart.
G: It?s kind of hard to fall apart over a miscarriage or an ectopic pregnancy, too. People are like, ?Oh, wow, hm.? Susan have you got any thoughts about that?
S: In addition to having carried the baby and maybe felt movement, you?ve got maternal hormones that are just wreaking havoc on a bereaved parent who has lost a baby and so that?s another aspect there.
G: Well, it?s time for us to close the show today and I wanted to thank you, Steve, for calling in, and I want to thank my special guest, Susan Hawkes. You have been absolutely fantastic and I know that you are helping people so much with your own experiences and thank you so much for being on the show, Susan.
S: Oh, thank you, Gloria, for the opportunity.
G: I wanted to talk about our guest next week will be Darcie Simms and Darcie is an author and a licensed psychotherapist and she has wit and wisdom that will spill over to all who listen. This show is archived on www.Health.VoiceAmerica.com as well as www.thecompassionatefriends.org websites. This is Dr. Gloria Horsley. Please email me at gchorsley@aol.com and stay tuned again next Thursday at 9:00 Pacific for more of Healing the Grieving Heart, a show of hope and renewal and support. Remember, you need not walk alone.

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