HEALING THE GRIEVING HEART
Suicide Changes Hearts
Host: Dr. Gloria Horsley
With guest: Joyce Harvey
August 4, 2005

G: Welcome to Healing the Grieving Heart. I?m your host Dr. Gloria Horsley. Healing the Grieving Heart is dedicated to those who are struggling through their days without the presence of that special child. Our topic today is: Suicide Changes Hearts. I am a bereaved parent and a psychotherapist; however, I don?t claim to be an expert on the topic of suicide. It has long been my belief that it matters not whether a child dies of a long-term illness, sudden accident, murder, overdose, or by their own hand in a bout of depression or mental confusion. We will miss them and hold them in our hearts endlessly and forever. For whatever reason or action, our children have left our lives and will never return. As parents and siblings, we all ask ourselves, why did this have to happen? Why must we suffer so? What could we have done to have made it different? These are universal questions. No matter the cause or events surrounding our child?s death, the fact is they are gone and we are left. How we cope is highly individual and is impacted by events surrounding the death. When I was picking my topics for the shows, I decided to dedicate an entire show to suicide. My colleagues asked me, ?If death by suicide is simply another way the child dies, why have a show specifically dedicated to the topic?? I replied, ?Because my friends who have lost children to suicide tell me that they have suffered cruel words, negative attitudes, and insensitive behaviors that have hurt, wounded their hearts, and delayed their healing.? Today?s show is not about suicide prevention. It?s about heart block prevention. While suicide prevention has a legitimate place in our society, I?m sure that any person who has had a child take their own life has been inundated with prevention. In retrospect, they are fully aware of all the signs and symptoms that they missed. Our show today is about healing those that are left behind. Remembering that with courage and faith, the heart will heal and love again. My guests and I are here to tell you that love will abound for you, your child, and the world. You will again enjoy the sunrise, a memory, a smell, and the tinkle of a child?s laughter. Healing the Grieving Heart is about nourishing the heart and removing the blocks that slow the miracle of renewal. Please join our show today, Suicide Changes Hearts, by calling our toll-free number 1-866-369-3742 with questions or comments regarding the losses in your life or email me at gchorsley@aol.com. Today, I am very honored to have as my special guest, Joyce Harvey, registered nurse, author of I?m Fine … I?m with the Angels, a children?s book on dying and survival of the spirit or soul. Joyce is a member of the Screen Actors Guild and the American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. Joyce?s only child, Jennifer, died by suicide in 1995 while serving in the Marines. Good morning, Joyce, welcome to Healing the Grieving Heart.
J: Good morning, Gloria, thanks for having me on the show.
G: I so appreciate your willingness to come in and share with our listeners this most important topic of coping with a death through suicide. Could you tell us something about Jennifer, your daughter, and how she died, and what she was doing at the time?
J: I sure can. Jennifer, as you mentioned, was my only child. She joined the Marine Corps because she wanted to serve our country, and she was always very serious about life and service and did very well in the Marine Corps. She was the honor graduate for her platoon, that?s the highest honors you can get when you graduate from boot camp, and it?s awarded for exceptional leadership and discipline, physical appearance, and a team spirit so to speak, and then she went on to graduate at the top of her military occupational school. Her specialty was administration. So she did very, very well. She was serving stateside in the states and she absolutely loved the Corp until she had a change in command and she had a new sergeant who began picking on her. I think he was jealous of Jen. She was bright and beautiful and had good leadership skills and was the honor graduate, and I think that got under his skin. But Jennifer was also very sensitive. She was sensitive from the time she was born, and she didn?t understand why the harder she worked to please the sergeant, the more he picked on her. And around the same time, she found out that her boyfriend, who had told her he was divorced, was in fact still married and planning to bring his wife and child to live with him on base, and they worked in the same office. When she found that out, of course, she broke up with him, but he began stalking her and not allowing her to move on with her life so between the harassment of the sergeant on a daily basis and the continued close working relationship with the ex-boyfriend in the same office, she began to slip into a deep depression and eventually took her own life.
G: How long had she been in the Marines when this happened?
J: A year and a half.
G: Were you aware of anything that was going on?
J: I was aware that she was struggling with a new supervisor. I didn?t know how deep her depression was, but I was aware that she was going through some difficult times, and I was trying to work with her, helping her to locate a psychologist off base so that her conversations could be kept private, and I was working with her on that.
G: So that certainly would be an issue, her conversations would need to be private which is some of the reason that people don?t come forward when they?re feeling bad.
J: Right. She said that anything she shared with the psychologist on base, her superiors could ask to see the records and could be privy to the conversations, which I don?t think is fair, and so we helped her find somebody in private practice that she could go to.
G: She was stateside which is a little different than those folks who have people in the military that are overseas.
J: Right and there has been an increase in suicides in the military. In fact, the military suicide rate has increased about 21% from ?79 to ?96 and it continues to rise. It?s the third leading cause of death in the military, and I think some of the young men and women that are taking their lives in Iraq, I personally consider those to be casualties of war as well. We don?t know what they have to do over there. We don?t know what they?re faced with, and it?s a casualty of war.
G: How did the military handle the suicide?
J: After Jennifer?s death, they did increase their suicide prevention classes, and I know the Army did put in a program because there were rises of suicide in the Army as well. They did put in a pretty in-depth suicide prevention program.
G: How did she die? What method?
J: She shot herself.
G: Because I was thinking one of the things about the military is they are carrying guns and they can do a spontaneous, at-the-moment kind of thing, which really makes it difficult. How does the military handle that? In terms of the fact that they do carry guns, if they feel like somebody?s depressed, do they put them on another duty?
J: Yes, they would, if they had recognized that.
G: But they didn?t recognize that with her.
J: Evidently not. I know she was crying out for help but no one was listening.
G: How was she doing that?
J: She would ask to be transferred from that caustic environment. The supervisor was humiliating her. Jennifer was a very strong person inwardly but she was also very sensitive so if he would humiliate her and she would cry, he?d make her sit at her desk in view of everyone and would not let her go to the ladies room or clean up her makeup or anything, so he was really, really harassing her and she had requested a transfer a number of times, went over his head requesting a transfer. His boss told him to lay off of her, she was a good Marine, stop picking on her, but he didn?t really enforce it so that the harassment continued.
G: So what happens to ? I don?t know the military. I know they have very different rules from the rest of the world. What happens to someone who is in charge of her when this all happened? Did he get any censure?
J: Well, that?s a good question. I tried to find that out. They did do a JAG investigation and NCIS, Naval Criminal Investigation. I tried to find out exactly what happened. Didn?t really get any good answers. I don?t think a whole lot happened quite frankly in terms of counseling these folks. Maybe just some counseling.
G: How do you deal with your anger around that? How have you dealt with that? I assume you were angry around it.
J: The anger didn?t come right away. I was able to keep the anger focused just on the few individuals and not against the entire military. Fortunately, I was able to separate out the behavior of a few versus the entire military, and I was very angry with the boyfriend and very angry with Jennifer?s supervisor. But I was also very angry at myself. I took this loss very personally. I felt like initially Jennifer?s suicide was my report card for being a mother and I had flunked motherhood. I took it very personally.
G: When we come back from break, let?s start from there and I?d also like to talk to our listeners about the stigma of suicide and things that were said to you or things that happened. We?re coming up on break and please stay tuned to hear more from bereaved parent Joyce Harvey. Our topic today is Suicide Changes Hearts. Please feel free to call in to our show. Our toll free number is 1-866-369-3742, and you can email me at gchorsley@aol.com.
Welcome back to Healing the Grieving Heart. I?m your host, Dr. Gloria, and my guest today is Joyce Harvey, registered nurse, author of I?m Fine … I?m With the Angels, a children?s book on dying and survival of the spirit or soul. The book can be purchased on www.xlibris.com. Joyce is a member of the Screen Actors Guild and American Federation of TV and Radio Artists. Joyce?s only child, Jennifer, died by suicide in 1995 while serving in the Marines. If you would like to join our show with comments for me or Joyce, please call our toll free number 1-866-369-3742 or email me at gchorsley@aol.com. Well, Joyce, when we took our break, we were talking about being hard on yourself, and you made a comment about the report card. Could you repeat that? I thought it was an excellent comment.
J: Sure. When Jennifer took her own life, I took that very personally. I felt I had failed in my role as a mother. I felt Jennifer?s suicide was my grade on my report card for being a mother and I felt like I got an ?F? like I had failed. I couldn?t see past the end of her life for a very long time to what I did do right while I was bringing her up. So I was very hard on myself. I took it very, very personally.
G: How did you move on beyond that?
J: It?ll be 10 years this October. I fortunately was surrounded by friends and family who often reiterated what a good mother I was and still am. You?re still a good mom. I think as I began to experience profound depression after losing Jennifer, I would ask myself questions like, ?well, you know how depressed you are, Joyce, is this your mother?s fault that you?re this depressed?? And I would say, ?No, it?s because I lost Jennifer, that?s why I?m depressed.? ?Okay, so it?s not your mother?s fault, so is it possible that her depression and her suicide is not your fault?? And I would say, ?Okay, that makes sense.? So I would really have to talk to myself and begin to just basically accept ?I?m not God. I couldn?t prevent this. I didn?t cause it.? But it took a long time. It took a long time.
G: And when you?re saying long time, tell us a little bit about the journey.
J: Oh. Several years before I could give up the guilt associated with suicide and it?s interesting, in doing some research on suicide, evidence suggests that those who experience a death of a loved one by suicide are more likely to experience different, perhaps more complicated grief reactions than those whose loved ones died from a natural cause or from accidents. I also found an interesting article that said there were two studies which specifically addressed the grief of parents of accidental and suicide deaths, and it found that parents of suicide listed guilt as the most distressing of their grief, while parents whose child died from accidents or illness listed loneliness as the most distressing symptom.
G: Oh, that?s interesting. When you say that it?s even more difficult, I think, oh, my gosh, how could it be any worse? It is so awful. But I hear what you?re saying. If we haven?t had the experience, it?s so hard as you know. People really can?t get how hard it is to have a child die until they have it happen. They really can?t get it, and I fully intellectually believe what you?re saying, but emotionally, I?m like, wow, how could it get any worse?
J: It?s interesting. There was a Dr. van Der Wal in 1989 who did a systematic review of literature, and he concluded that evidence suggests bereavement following suicide is qualitatively different from other causes of death in six ways. He said those bereaved from suicide experienced a prolonged search for motives, more often deny the cause of death, deal with more feelings of rejection by the deceased, raise religious questions more often, conceal the cause of death more often, and of course have a fear of susceptibility to any hereditarily-based suicide adiation.
G: Very interesting. Those are great points. There are two things I?d like to talk about. One of them is the stigma and then I?d like to talk about the idea. What was that last comment you made, the last statement about suicide?
J: Some people worry that there?s a genetic pre-disposition. That wasn?t one of my concerns but the literature suggests it.
G: Because this was your only child.
J: This was my only child, yes.
G: The idea that there is cluster suicide, and that we?re now a suicide family. And sometimes therapists promote that idea. You?ve got to be careful now. Because you?ve had one child kill themselves. It could be in your family now. And my belief as a therapist has always been this ? let?s say we are not a suicide family now. Because it has happened in our family now we say it will never happen again. And we go in that direction rather than saying we?re now at risk. Because I believe that if we don?t keep it a secret, which is part of what I think is great about your coming on the show, and we let our families know how much it hurts, and we let our families know that it is not a good thing to do. It moves us in a direction that this is not an alternative. I?ve done a lot of work with families on doing family histories and genograms with families who had suicide in the family and the families, one of their family mottos has become ?we are not a family who takes this option.? So I think that?s one way that you can go. Could you talk about the stigma a little bit?
J: What I found if I was talking with strangers and they asked if I had any children and I said I had one who died, they pressed the issue ? how did she die? Well, she took her own life. A couple of times people would say, ?Oh, was she hooked on drugs and alcohol?? I mean, they automatically assumed. No. She wasn?t. She didn?t drink. She was part of Youth to Youth and was against drugs, against alcohol. And I found myself being put into a defensive posture and for that reason, I tended to avoid offering at least how she died. And if it?s a complete stranger that you?re not going to see again and it doesn?t matter, I didn?t necessarily go into it. I would say something, well, it?s really difficult for me to talk about that and I?d rather not. But I was amazed at that stigma, she must have been hooked on drugs and alcohol. That really bothered me. It?s interesting, too, that research shows that people who lose someone to suicide are perceived by society as more psychologically disturbed. In other words, the survivor, the person who has lost, that they?re less likeable, more blameworthy, more ashamed, more in need of mental health care and more likely to remain sad and depressed longer. And the way they did the study was they did anecdotes of ? they wrote up the same kind of scenario with a parent who loses a child but change the manner of death and found that people?s reactions were different towards the parents who lost a child to suicide.
G: That?s interesting. Well, I have to say that my teen-age son when he was killed with his cousin, everyone wanted to believe that they were on drugs and alcohol, even the police. They did autopsies and we talked to the police after it and they were very surprised that their blood was clear of any drugs or alcohol. They just hydroplaned and hit a bridge and the car blew up. But I think people do want to find a reason for the death because then it means that it won?t happen to them. So I think there?s some of that that?s a little bit universal. We?ve heard it in other realms. But what I think what?s interesting about suicide is that it?s magnified. I think we hear it more and there are more kinds of comments. What are some other things that came up for you as far as the stigma went?
J: I think again, sometimes parents seem to be blamed for kids that have gone awry however that might be interpreted, and I think that even if others weren?t thinking that I was somehow to blame, I was thinking that in saying again going back to that, that bad mother syndrome. It?s interesting, too, and you would know more about this. The DSM diagnostic manual, the mental health manual, talks about possible scenarios that can lead to post-traumatic stress disorder, and they list the loss of a child as one. They also list suicide as one. So I got a double-whammy there in terms of having a critical incident and having to work through that.
G: And do you feel that, I assume that having her as your only child, also impacts your future?
J: Exactly, I lost not only her, but my future with grandchildren. I remember when that hit me, it didn?t hit me initially that I lost my grandchildren as well. Jennifer was 19 and she wasn?t married, but when it hit me I would never have grandchildren, I grieved and grieved and still grieve over that because that?s something I really long for. No one?s grief is any worse than anyone else?s but I really feel like I got hit with a triple whammy. Not only did I lose a child, lost an only child, and it was to suicide. That?s a big cross to bear.
G: When we come back from break, I would like you to talk to the audience about how you take care of yourself because you?re up and running and that?s a pretty amazing thing after everything you?ve been through and I know all the things you do and maybe we can talk about some of the things you?re doing now. We?re coming up for break now and please stay tuned for more from Dr. Gloria and my guest Joyce Harvey. Our topic today is Suicide Changes Hearts and we will be with you in a few minutes. Welcome back to Healing the Grieving Heart. Well, Joyce, I believe we have a call from Bob in California.
B: Good morning, Gloria. As you know, I know you and I?ve done work with survivors of suicide with Compassionate Friends since 1988.
G: And your daughter, can you say a little about your child?s suicide?
B: Erin was 19 and she completed a suicide with alcohol and her anti-depressant medication in 1987. It was, as everybody knows that?s experienced this or any loss of any child, and actually is an incredibly painful and ongoing experience. It never goes away. It gets better but it never goes away. One of the things that I?ve done and it really helps a lot just like Joyce?s book, I?m sure, helped her. I started working with a group called Teen Line which is a suicide prevention group out of Cedars Sinai Hospital in Los Angeles. And we do outreach to schools and school personnel, police, fire, first responders. A lot of work on recognizing and dealing with young people who are at risk of completing or attempting a suicide. It has really helped me deal with what I?ve gone through as a parent.
G: And I think Joyce is doing something outreach, too, with TAPS. What does that stand for?
J: The Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors. It?s a non-profit organization for anyone who had lost a loved one in the military, and from June 2003 to June 2004, I was their Director of Peer Support and I worked with all the families of the casualties. I worked with all the families of the casualties in Iraq, Afghanistan, and would work with them to match them with a peer mentor, someone who lost a child or a spouse or a sibling in a similar way, but who was further down the road, to help them to deal with their grief, and then I would hook them up with local bereavement support groups like Compassionate Friends or widows or a widower.
G: This is a little further down the road, right?
J: Right.
G: So then it would be for our people who are maybe a year or two out of grief.
J: I so encourage people to do their own healing work first and not to leap into something too fast. We have to do our own grief work before we can help someone else and we owe that to ourselves. And as Bob said about losing a child, we never get over it. The pain becomes more manageable. We learn to carry it with us and control it a little more, but in those first couple of years, it controls us, and so it?s really important to do our grief work and to allow ourselves time to heal regardless of what society says the time frame should be.
G: Bob, have you got any thoughts about that? Taking care of yourself? How you did it?
B: For me, I entered into Compassionate Friends about five months after my daughter died. For the first three meetings, I couldn?t even say my name, but it really helped me to be involved with other people that had a similar experience as far as losing a child. Now we all know there are certain deaths that have a stigma attached to it, not necessarily a real stigma, but a stigma in people?s minds. What kind of parent could you have been if your child committed suicide or if you backed over them in the driveway or if they drowned while you were in the house? Those kinds of deaths that are tragic are also stigmatized. So that?s part of the healing process, and it was good to be around other people. Joyce is absolutely right. The time frame that society or ?professionals? put on this, present company excepted Gloria, put on the healing process or the grieving process ? it?s a personal thing. It?s a very personal, individual thing. Even in married couples.
G: Now, Bob, tell me something. Do you think that there?s any difference between a guy and a woman in the grieving process or with this or did you feel any different expectations?
B: I think society does. You go back to work. How?s your wife doing? And they never ask you how you?re doing for one thing. And one of the workshops that I do with Compassionate Friends is called ?For Women Only? which explains to women the way men grieve and how they see women?s grief. So there?s obviously a big difference in the process.
G: Was there anything specific to suicide that you felt? Joyce was talking about how she felt she was a bad mother. I think mothers kind of take a hit or in their own minds maybe.
B: Every situation is different. In my situation, my daughter basically from the time she was 12 lived with me and didn?t speak to her mother.
G: So you were kind of the mom, the primary caregiver, I call it. I think the primary caregiver is the one that takes and feels a huge hit.
B: Dad can?t kiss it and make it well type thing. It?s a similar process. You feel inadequate and you feel totally devastated in the sense that you should have been able to somehow make this work and make it right, and it?s not logical and it?s not correct but in your mind it is.
J: Oh, yes. I was a single parent, too. Jennifer?s father and I divorced when she was only a couple of months old. I remember saying, I never let her out of my sight when she was little. I always kept my eyes on her. If I couldn?t keep my eyes on her, I?d put her in a playpen or a crib so she?d be protected and got her immunization shots and did everything I could to protect her, and then this happened. And I couldn?t protect her from herself. I couldn?t protect her from the military and it was such a feeling of disempowerment like a parent should be able to protect their own child.
B: Exactly. One of the things that happens after awhile when you?ve dealt with this as long as we have, you learn that when young people, or anybody for that matter, takes their own life, they?re trying to end their pain. It?s a very real pain. Not physical, as we know it, but a very painful existence that they?re in. They used to do things like drugs and alcohol to self-medicate, etc., and they get to the point where they just feel that there?s no end. Unfortunately, and especially in young people, they consider a permanent solution to a temporary problem and they don?t see any light at the end of the tunnel.
G: I actually had a fellow colleague who did a study, his dissertation was on people who jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge, and about 8 people out of 250 lived. He interviewed them and every single one of them were sorry on the way down.
J: Is that right?
B: My understanding from the young people I work with that have made attempts and not been successful is that they?re glad they?re still here and that part of them wanted to die, but they really didn?t want to and when it got right down to it, they were hoping that they would be safe.
J: They want the pain to go away. That?s what they want. They want the pain to go away.
G: One of the things that I?m very interested in and I talked a little bit about it on my introduction is how we treat families where there has been a suicide. It is just incredible the way we romp in on them. We?ve got to run in, and I know you?re involved with it, Bob, so you?re probably sensitive to it. We?ve got to run in, and you, too, Joyce with TAPS, we?ve got to run in and do suicide prevention in that school so there?s not a cluster suicide, but we don?t even think about this family that we?re running over.
B: Exactly. One of the things that I really do a lot of work with LAPD, LA School Police, Riverside County Sheriffs, and School Resource Officers, is the first-responder aspect. As I tell them, the thing that they say at the time can be comforting and it will be remembered, but if it?s painful and not handled, it will never be forgotten. It will just be an added part of the pain. And people don?t know how to deal with a death of a child to begin with or the death of anybody. They?re not really trained for it. But at the same time, when it?s a first-responder situation of a suicide, it can be devastating if they don?t handle it well.
G: Listen, Bob, thanks a lot for calling in on the show. We?re just about ready to come up on break so take care of yourself down there in Southern California.
B: All right. And you guys keep up the good work, too.
J: You, too, Bob. Thanks for all the work you do.
G: So that was interesting talking to Bob. What did you get from that? Anything different for you?
J: I agree with him about when you were asking about taking care of ourselves. One of the best ways a bereaved parent can take care of themselves is to go to a support group to be with others who truly understand the pain and the devastation and the overwhelming, all-encompassing grief. Going to a support group and hearing others feeling the same way normalizes our grief. We?re having normal reactions to an abnormal situation. And I?ve never considered myself a group person. Prior to Jennifer?s death, I would not have chosen a support group for anything because I?m so private, but when I could not find the understanding even in my own family, and then spent time with bereaved parents, they just nodded their heads at everything I said, or everything they said, I nodded my head. And don?t get me wrong, my family loves me, would do anything for me, but they didn?t understand the all-encompassing aspect of losing Jennifer and how I felt my life was over.
G: We?re coming up on our final break and one of the things Joyce and I said during break, one of the big messages we want to give you all out there is that we?ve made it and so can you. So we?re coming up on our final break. My guest is Joyce Harvey and our topic is Suicide Changes Hearts. Joyce, when we come back from break, if there?s anything you feel like we haven?t covered, let?s do that. I?m Gloria Horsley and this is Healing the Grieving Heart.
Welcome back to Healing the Grieving Heart. Our topic today is Suicide Changes Hearts. I?m your host, Dr. Gloria Horsley, and my guest today is Joyce Harvey, bereaved parent, registered nurse, and author of I?m Fine ? I?m with the Angels, a child?s book on dying and survival of the spirit or soul. The book can be purchased on www.xlibris.com. Well, welcome back to the show and Joyce, when we took a break, I was asking if there are other things that you wanted to cover and I?m hearing that you want to talk to our audience about taking care of themselves and how you?ve done it.
J: Yes. I truly believe that there is a part of us that knows what we need to do to heal and what makes us comfortable, and what helps us to feel closer to our child. Those who have not lost a child may think it?s strange or morbid to wear a piece of clothing of the child or jewelry, but there?s nothing morbid or strange about that. Every bereaved parent does in some way wear something of their childs or keep it close to them and that?s a way that we can remain close to our child. Keeping their belongings in their bedroom for maybe longer than what the non-grieving public understands. We?re the only ones who can make those decisions, and I tell people, grieving parents, if what you want to do is not illegal, immoral, or unethical, and if it doesn?t hurt you or anyone else, then do it if it helps your healing.
G: Oh, I like that.
J: Yes. We need to trust that still quiet voice within us that directs us in our healing journey and tells us what to do and what would feel better. One of the things that helps me a lot and helped me especially those first 5, 6, 7, 8 years, is writing. I?ve always written to process. I?ve kept a journal my whole life. Whenever I needed to process anything significant, I would write about it, and so I spent a lot of time writing after Jennifer died. I?ve written a book about losing her which isn?t published yet. But I?ve also written stories that have been published in Chicken Soup for the Soul. One?s in Chicken Soup for the Grieving Soul. It?s called I Don?t Want to Walk Without You and it?s about wearing Jennifer?s military shoes on her birthday. She and I wore the exact same shoe size, so you talk about soul mates, s-o-l-e or s-o-u-l. Jenny and I were soul mates. And I also had one published in Chicken Soup for the Unthinkable Soul. So writing is one of the ways that I worked with my grief. I think another thing, too, in addition to trusting that inner knowing, especially for newly bereaved, is to take life one day at a time or, when you?re very newly bereaved, take it 10 minutes at a time if you have to. Sometimes when we look at a future without our child and a future of experiencing that raw pain we feel those first couple of years, it becomes overwhelming and we need to ask ourselves questions like, ?Can I do this for another 10 minutes? Okay, I can do it for another 10 minutes.? Bring it down to bite-sized chunks of coping. If I looked at my life too far down the road, it was overwhelming and I didn?t think I could do it, but I could back it down to doable chunks of time.
G: The one day at a time kind of thing, or one minute at a time at times. And make sure that you?re eating, drinking, and sleeping, and maybe going for a walk around the block.
J: Absolutely. Grief is very, very exhausting. I read an article that said one hour of grief has the same physical equivalent on the body as 8 hours of hard physical labor. So one of the most important things we need to do when we?re bereaved is to get rest, to sleep as much as we can, obviously, and still be functional. And to do what we need to do to get good quality sleep because grief is exhausting. We need to cut back on our commitments. I cannot do the same level of activity that I did before Jennifer died. So, get rest.
G: Let?s take a caller now. We?ve got a caller, Carol. Hi Carol, welcome to our show with Joyce Harvey and Gloria Horsley. And where are you from, Carol?
C: I?m from Florida and right now I?m in Maine. I?m calling basically because I wanted to tell you about a wonderful resource through Compassionate Friends that we have every Friday night.
G: Carol can I just stop you for one second? Would you tell our audience a little bit about your child that died?
C: Sure, I can. My son, Keith Lore, died in 1999. He was very depressed like your first speaker. Very similar situation. Job stress, a boss that basically didn?t have a lot of communication with Keith, and Keith was expected to do an awful lot, and he started suffering with depression and we had no understanding of his depression because we didn?t know the signs of depression at the time.
G: So your experience was kind of the same things that happened to Jennifer.
C: Exactly. When I was listening to her story, I kept thinking it sounded so similar to Keith?s.
G: We?re kind of short of time so could you tell us a little about your resource.
C: Yes, I would love to. It?s every Friday night from 8:00 to 9:00, and that?s Eastern Standard Time, and you can find out more about it by going to the Compassionate Friends website, and I can give you the address of the chat room but it?s very long and I think some people might not be able to get it. Would you like me to give it to you?
G: Sure, you can give it.
C: Okay. It?s www.compassionatefriends.org/Chat/chat_entrances.shtml, but I think it would be easier if you just went on Compassionate Friends.
G: That is a long one but some of our real computer-savvy people I?m sure could pick that up quite quickly.
C: Yes, and I didn?t want to discourage anyone. It?s very easy to get into the chat room.
G: So do you have any other question or comment for us before we close the show?
C: The only other thing I?d like to say to you, Gloria, is one of the comments that you made previously was you said that if you talk to your family about suicide, then other members in your family wouldn?t take their lives. But we have to remember that suicide is not a choice. Suicide is brought on because of depression and so because you talk to your child about suicide, that doesn?t mean you?re going to prevent a suicide death.
G: Well, that is true, however, keeping it a secret is also an issue.
C: I agree with that. I don?t think anyone should keep suicide a secret. But I think a lot of people think suicide is a choice. and it is not a choice. It?s brought on by depression or another mental illness of some sort, and I just wanted to make sure that other people don?t say that because my one child died by suicide, then it?s my fault that my other child died by suicide, because that is not true.
G: Oh, I appreciate that comment. Well, thanks for calling in, Carol, and hopefully people will tune into your chat room, and we will be talking to you later. Joyce, we?re coming up in about one minute to ending the show, is there anything else that you wanted to talk about or say? I so appreciate having you on the show. You are just a wonderful guest and have so much information.
J: Well, thank you. I just want to say to listeners who are a bereaved parent that the pain does get more manageable. There will be a time when you?ll laugh and smile again even though I didn?t believe that when people told me in those early years, ?you?ll laugh and smile again.? But happiness can come back into your life. It?s come back into mine and we can do this. We can do it together. As we always say, we need not walk alone, and I know you repeat that as well. It can be done. We can go forward together.
G: Thanks so much for being on the show and it?s time to close. And again, Joyce Harvey, thanks so much. You?ve been a great guest and together we have tackled a difficult topic discussing not only the stigma of death by suicide but how you can go on, survive, and thrive and do fantastic things. Joyce and I have done it, and so can you. Joyce Harvey, bereaved parent, registered nurse, author of I?m Fine ? I?m With the Angels, thank you again for being on the show. Please stay tuned again next week for Barbara Weitzberg, Licensed Social Worker, mom of Stacy, and bereaved grandparent of Alicia, who died in 1997. Barbara will discuss how grandparents, who are often disenfranchised grievers, can give and receive support. A show not to be missed. This show is archived on www.Health.VoiceAmerica.com as well as www.thecompassionatefriends.org websites. This is Dr. Gloria. Please stay tuned again next Thursday at 9:00 a.m. Pacific for more of Healing the Grieving Heart, a show of hope, renewal and support. Remember, you need not walk alone.

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